I need advice.-

[Shane]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by josecarlos:
[B]


Or, maybe, it would be interesting pass to another compositor ?

Who ?

Hello ther,

well, the beethoven stuff r brilliant i no, try out the sonatas and concertos. but id suggest try some chopin too. he is my favourite composer and i think he is one of the best ever, tho my opinion may be prejudised by the fact that i play the piano. but nontheless, he is fantastic.

shud try to listen to the ballades if u get a chance. the 1st 1 is great and his etudes and preludes too. the nocturnes r all good and his polonaises. sooooo many to choose from! enjoy!

Shane

[Opus131]

[quote]Originally posted by spaceray:
[b]

Originally posted by Opus131:
I always seen Schubert music (and indeed, much of 19th century romanticism) as a step down from Beethoven.


This is nonsense,Beethoven is Beethoven ,Schubert is Schubert,each have their place.Music is not a contest!

I'm not making any contest, i'm merely correcting a false assumption.

This whole argument about Schubert being a step furthere of Beethoven it's not new, and it's becoming annoying. It denotes how little certain people understand Beethoven's music.

Granted, that isn't a fault per-se, it just saddens me because they are not enjoying Beethoven's music to it's full extend.

What Beethoven achieved in terms of compositional prowless (particularly in his last period) it's on a totally different level.

Schubert expanded on Beethoven's thematical aestetics and romantical scope, and if that's all you care about i'm sure his music may seem like a step furthere. But Beethoven's compositional priorities went beyond that.

Brhams waited years before he even dared to delve in Beethoven's territory, most neo romanticists didn't even try, dispise having Beethoven himself as a guide (whereas Beethoven had none).

Schubert's death at 31 it's one of the greatest tragedies in the history of music (even more then Mozart, who, by all accounts had propably reatched his peak), but let's not blater on how his music was a step 'furthere' of Beethoven, he wasn't there yet. Nobody has ever been for nearly a century after the master death...


[This message has been edited by Opus131 (edited January 20, 2004).]

[v russo]

Opus 131:

You are correct in regards to Brahms and Schubert, etc....

These composers from the mid 19th century took up on more of Beethoven's 'middle period' and thats all. They did not attempt to add anything to his 'late period' (of course, the music was so ahead of its time that no one could have possibly understood it on a deep level)

Schoenberg, Webern, Bartok etc.. all seemed to have worked from the shattered remnants of Beethovens final phase!



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v russo

[Peter]

Originally posted by v russo:
Opus 131:

You are correct in regards to Brahms and Schubert, etc....

These composers from the mid 19th century took up on more of Beethoven's 'middle period' and thats all. They did not attempt to add anything to his 'late period' (of course, the music was so ahead of its time that no one could have possibly understood it on a deep level)

Schoenberg, Webern, Bartok etc.. all seemed to have worked from the shattered remnants of Beethovens final phase!

Actually I find little Beethoven of any period in Schubert at all, which is quite remarkable considering they lived in the same city at the same time. Schubert was first influenced by Mozart and Rossini until he found his own unique voice in his last instrumental works - the songs revealed this at an earlier date. The 4th symphony was his attempt at emulating Beethoven and it is not a success despite some fine moments.

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'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Opus131:


....Schubert's death at 31 it's one of the greatest tragedies in the history of music (even more then Mozart, who, by all accounts had propably reatched his peak), but let's not blater on how his music was a step 'furthere' of Beethoven, he wasn't there yet. Nobody has ever been for nearly a century after the master death...


[This message has been edited by Opus131 (edited January 20, 2004).]

Mozart's last symphony, No. 41, reaches a new plateau of form and expression in its final movement. This great piece of counterpoint shows no signs of being the end of anything, rather the beginning of a fertile new period in Mozart's work. While you, personally may feel Mozart had reached his peak, you say "by all accounts". I've never seen any piece of writing by any scholar or critic who intimated that Mozart was not continuing to develop strongly when he died.

Had he lived, I think the musical dialogue and cross-pollination between Mozart and Beethoven would have been breathtaking.

[v russo]

Peter,

I hear plenty of Beethovens influence on Schubert and most other serious composers that came after him in the 19th century. Schubert idolized Beethoven. To say that Rossi and and Mozart were the only main influences on his composing life would be short sighted, I'm afriad.

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v russo

[Peter]

Originally posted by v russo:
Peter,

I hear plenty of Beethovens influence on Schubert and most other serious composers that came after him in the 19th century. Schubert idolized Beethoven. To say that Rossi and and Mozart were the only main influences on his composing life would be short sighted, I'm afriad.

I'm not denying that Schubert was influenced by Beethoven - the rhythm from the 7th symphony allegretto for example occurs in several Schubert works (the Wanderer for example), and the finale of Schubert's A major sonata takes as its model the corresponding movement of Beethoven's Op.31/1, but in his Lieder Schubert opened the door to the Romantic era. Even in works such as the Trout quintet he writes the first exposition that goes to the sub-dominant, thus weakening the tonic-dominant polarity that classical models are based on -you do not find this in Beethoven.

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'Man know thyself'

[v russo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter:
[B] I'm not denying that Schubert was influenced by Beethoven - the rhythm from the 7th symphony allegretto for example occurs in several Schubert works (the Wanderer for example), and the finale of Schubert's A major sonata takes as its model the corresponding movement of Beethoven's Op.31/1, but in his Lieder Schubert opened the door to the Romantic era. Even in works such as the Trout quintet he writes the first exposition that goes to the sub-dominant, thus weakening the tonic-dominant polarity that classical models are based on -you do not find this in Beethoven.

Good points Peter, this is true. And, Schuberts lieder is his own, no doubt of that.



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v russo

[Opus131]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

Had he lived, I think the musical dialogue and cross-pollination between Mozart and Beethoven would have been breathtaking.

You are quite correct actually.

What i meant to say was that Mozart had achieved mastery already and that his output was already at a peak, unlike Schubert which was cut short before he could master his own musical language (if we exclude the Leider, as Peter pointed out).

I do feel like Mozart music was falling into a trap, but it was propably a momentary phase .

Indeed, the following years see Haydn at the peak of his own musical career, followed by Beethoven a decade later.

With such an outstanding competition, i think he would have found enought inspiration to evolve even furthere, and who knows how that would have influenced Beethoven ?!?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Opus131:
You are quite correct actually.

What i meant to say was that Mozart had achieved mastery already and that his output was already at a peak, unlike Schubert which was cut short before he could master his own musical language (if we exclude the Leider, as Peter pointed out).

I do feel like Mozart music was falling into a trap, but it was propably a momentary phase .

Indeed, the following years see Haydn at the peak of his own musical career, followed by Beethoven a decade later.

With such an outstanding competition, i think he would have found enought inspiration to evolve even furthere, and who knows how that would have influenced Beethoven ?!?

Ah but this game of 'if' could go the other way and we could say how would Beethoven's music have been had Mozart not been born or had died even younger? So though speculation is interesting it doesn't really get us anywhere!

I think Schubert had mastered instrumental music in the last years - works such as the Quintet, Great C major Symphony, last 3 piano sonatas and the last 3 quartets reveal this. Even in his early 20's works such as the unfinished symphony and the quartetsatz show him well on the way.

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'Man know thyself'

[Opus131]

Originally posted by Peter:
Ah but this game of 'if' could go the other way and we could say how would Beethoven's music have been had Mozart not been born or had died even younger? So though speculation is interesting it doesn't really get us anywhere!

That depends where you want to go.

I wasn't going anywhere, for one

Originally posted by Peter:

I think Schubert had mastered instrumental music in the last years - works such as the Quintet, Great C major Symphony, last 3 piano sonatas and the last 3 quartets reveal this. Even in his early 20's works such as the unfinished symphony and the quartetsatz show him well on the way.

I don't think he ever did, and those works are proof of that, if anything, they are as structurally deficient as anything he ever wrote.

I'd even rank the Eroica over his 9th, and that was composed around the same age.

Schubert wasn't short of talent, but like most young composers (if we exclude Mozart), structural mastery was beyond his reatch.

His power lied within his astounding ability to create harmonic combination, to which he owns the incredible amount of compositions under his belt, and i think we should leave it at that.

In any case, because his works are easier then Beethoven's, i'd say Schubert makes an excellent suggestion here...

[This message has been edited by Opus131 (edited January 23, 2004).]

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Opus131:
I don't think he ever did, and those works are proof of that, if anything, they are as structurally deficient as anything he ever wrote.

I'd even rank the Eroica over his 9th, and that was composed around the same age.

The 9th symphony was written when Schubert was around 6 years younger than Beethoven when he wrote the Eroica and you might as well compare Beethoven's 4th unfavourably to the Eroica.

Schubert wasn't short of talent, but like most young composers (if we exclude Mozart), structural mastery was beyond his reatch.

His power lied within his astounding ability to create harmonic combination, to which he owns the incredible amount of compositions under his belt, and i think we should leave it at that.

What about his melodic gifts?

In any case, because his works are easier then Beethoven's, i'd say Schubert makes an excellent suggestion here...

Which works are easier than which? 'Winterreise' easier than 'An die Ferne Geliebte'? The string quintet easier than Beethoven's Op.29? The G major quartet easier than Op.18 no.2?

It really is a meaningless generalisation!



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'Man know thyself'

[Opus131]

Peter, maybe i'm expressing the wrong way, but i'm not arguing about who was the greatest genious and i defenatly wouldn't base such an ludicrious assumption on how young they all were when they wrote their masterpeices.

Age has got nothing to do with genious, it's all circumstantial.

When i compared Schubert to young Beethoven i was merely pointing out to the fact the latter had already mastered composition to a not while the first didn't. Schubert 9th couldn't measure to the Eroica let alone be a step above of Beethoven entire output, particularly his late compositions.

Going by age, Mozart wrote as many classics as Schubert and Beethoven put togheter, i find that quite irrilevant to who wrote the most masterful music, which is what we are discussing here.

Comparing Schubert last quartets to Beethoven's, we find the latter esponentially more difficoult to understand and defenatly more masterful. It matters not at what age Beethoven wrote them, for all intended purposes Schubert could have been a far greater genious and had he lived longer, he might have wrote even greater masterpeices.

But he didn't, and that's that.

Putting his 'melodic gifts'(harmonic)aside, his composotions still don't compare to mature Beethoven, sorry.



[This message has been edited by Opus131 (edited January 24, 2004).]

[Opus131]

BTW, as far as comparing the Eroica with the 4th, i have to comment that the latter is just every inch as imponent a work as it's more popular predecessor, albiet in a totally different way.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Opus131:
BTW, as far as comparing the Eroica with the 4th, i have to comment that the latter is just every inch as imponent a work as it's more popular predecessor, albiet in a totally different way.

Schubert's 9th is also an important work in a different way!

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'Man know thyself'