Beethoven & Handel

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
You will recall the anecdote to be found in Thayer whereby Beethoven when questioned would not be drawn about why he rated Handel above Mozart, saying only, after some provocation, 'on Olympus everyone knows who is King!'

Well it's a long time since I read Thayer (in the original 5 vols as a student), but you always seem to interpret quotes such as that to infer that Beethoven thought all other composers were dreadful! He referred to Bach as the Immortal God of harmony and said he should be called Ocean. His admiration for Handel stemming primarily from his last years and the gift he received on his death bed is understandable but in no way does it imply he regarded Bach or Mozart as bland mediocrities in comparison, neither do I!

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'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Some of the newer members of this forum may not be aware that this Bach-Handel discussion between Rod and others has gone on several lengthy times before. We even had a 'cutting contest' for awhile where MP3 pieces by both composers were posted and discussed. The fact is that Rod is incapable of hearing the glories of Bach that have moved countless listeners and chalks the Cantor's reputation up to a sort of Emperor's New Clothes conformism where legions of listeners have adored Bach not from their own hearts and minds but because some academics or trend-setters of some sort, have told and tell them that they should.

Against this he says by listening to the MP3s on his Handel site the truth will out. I must say that I've been listening to these for some time and have heard some I like and some I don't as much. Although some of the music sounds beautiful, I haven't heard anything that has made me want to hear it more than twice, usually once. If I've praised it to Rod, and I have on occasion, it has been at first impression, and because I wanted to be friendly to him after some of the knock-down drag-out debates we'd had. It has not pulled me back to hear the music again, or made me want to explore Handel further. It has not made a large impression on me, at a time when some other composers new to me, such as Gluck and Richard Strauss, decidedly have, along with some new pieces by Bach that I hadn't heard before.

Although I do like Handel a bit more now than I did before, I've heard nothing that would cause me to change my opinion of the relative merits of him and Bach.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited January 20, 2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Some of the newer members of this forum may not be aware that this Bach-Handel discussion between Rod and others has gone on several lengthy times before. We even had a 'cutting contest' for awhile where MP3 pieces by both composers were posted and discussed. The fact is that Rod is incapable of hearing the glories of Bach that have moved countless listeners and chalks the Cantor's reputation up to a sort of Emperor's New Clothes conformism where legions of listeners have adored Bach not from their own hearts and minds but because some academics or trend-setters of some sort, have told and tell them that they should.

Against this he says by listening to the MP3s on his Handel site the truth will out. I must say that I've been listening to these for some time and have heard some I like and some I don't as much. Although some of the music sounds beautiful, I haven't heard anything that has made me want to hear it more than twice, usually once. If I've praised it to Rod, and I have on occasion, it has been at first impression, and because I wanted to be friendly to him after some of the knock-down drag-out debates we'd had. It has not pulled me back to hear the music again, or made me want to explore Handel further. It has not made a large impression on me, at a time when some other composers new to me, such as Gluck and Richard Strauss, decidedly have, along with some new pieces by Bach that I hadn't heard before.

Although I do like Handel a bit more now than I did before, I've heard nothing that would cause me to change my opinion of the relative merits of him and Bach.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited January 20, 2004).]

I suggest a website offering select cuts from Bach would be nowhere near so interesting as the stuff I have presented thus far and can go on presenting indefinitely at the same level of quality, and I haven't even presented any of Handel's best known music other than a couple of tracks from the Water suites. I leave it for the members to judge for themselves, but I remain unmoved on the issue.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well it's a long time since I read Thayer (in the original 5 vols as a student), but you always seem to interpret quotes such as that to infer that Beethoven thought all other composers were dreadful! He referred to Bach as the Immortal God of harmony and said he should be called Ocean. His admiration for Handel stemming primarily from his last years and the gift he received on his death bed is understandable but in no way does it imply he regarded Bach or Mozart as bland mediocrities in comparison, neither do I!

If I may be frank here, and I mean no offence to Rod in saying this (I have joined his site, and it is very good, and he deserves much credit for it), but it is clear to me why his comments get up the nose of many posters here.

Rod does not just say "Handel is neglected and underated, and in my opinion he was the best after Beethoven", but he seems to say, "Not only do I think Handel is the best, but this is the objective truth, if anybody disagrees they are idiots, and everybody after Beethoven and Handel is rubbish and not worth listening to!". This, it seems to me, is the implicit message. Furthermore, any performance of Handel not on period instruments is rubbish too! So what generations of music lovers have been listening to for nearly two centuries is not worth a dime.

Preference for Handel is taken to the level of Handel-idolatory, Handel-fundamentalism, a view that EVERY piece of music ever written beyond Handel (and Beethoven) is not even worth listening to - the very impartiality and fanaticism that Rod would accuse Wagnerians of! To say that St Matthew Passion is not worth listening to, is, in my opinion, silly. Liking one composer best shouldn't, to a fair critic, justify dismissing the great achievements of others.

A few comments reportedly said by Beethoven about his preference for Handel are taken as authority for this extremist position. But as Peter has pointed out, Beethoven never dismissed the works of the other great composers.

I have posted at the begining of this thread a plausible argument as to why Beethoven may have ranked Handel above Mozart and Bach. I would recommend any poster, who has not already done so, to have a read of it.

[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited January 21, 2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
If I may be frank here, and I mean no offence to Rod in saying this (I have joined his site, and it is very good, and he deserves much credit for it), but it is clear to me why his comments get up the nose of many posters here.

Rod does not just say "Handel is neglected and underated, and in my opinion he was the best after Beethoven", but he seems to say, "Not only do I think Handel is the best, but this is the objective truth, if anybody disagrees they are idiots, and everybody after Beethoven and Handel is rubbish and not worth listening to!". This, it seems to me, is the implicit message. Furthermore, any performance of Handel not on period instruments is rubbish too! So what generations of music lovers have been listening to for nearly two centuries is not worth a dime.

Preference for Handel is taken to the level of Handel-idolatory, Handel-fundamentalism, a view that EVERY piece of music ever written beyond Handel (and Beethoven) is not even worth listening to - the very impartiality and fanaticism that Rod would accuse Wagnerians of! To say that St Matthew Passion is not worth listening to, is, in my opinion, silly. Liking one composer best shouldn't, to a fair critic, justify dismissing the great achievements of others.

A few comments reportedly said by Beethoven about his preference for Handel are taken as authority for this extremist position. But as Peter has pointed out, Beethoven never dismissed the works of the other great composers.

I have posted at the begining of this thread a plausible argument as to why Beethoven may have ranked Handel above Mozart and Bach. I would recommend any poster, who has not already done so, to have a read of it.

[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited January 21, 2004).]

I suggest my position makes for more interesting discussion than many of the chains I have been reading here over the past few months.

My position regarding Bach does not stem from Handel idolation, it was confirmed long before I was interested in Handel, from a purely Beethovenian perspective. Quite simply I was dissappointed with a lot of what I'd heard, I expected more given the fact that so many people rate Bach the supreme composer. My ignorance of Handel was due to the fact that so much of his music has been neglected until recently, due, I suspect, to Bachian Idolatory!? Now if it weren't for Handel I would not be into Baroque music at all. Handel, like Beethoven, offers a multidimentional manner with music, all things are catered for within the basic approach - emotinal/intellectual balance, control of form and content etc. Bach and the others are never so consistant in this respect. I am no idol worshipper, I listen and I simply judge. Perhaps my standards are too high? But that's why I'm here and not at a Tchaikovsky forum!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 21, 2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
My position regarding Bach does not stem from Handel idolation, it was confirmed long before I was interested in Handel, from a purely Beethovenian perspective. Quite simply I was dissappointed with a lot of what I'd heard, I expected more given the fact that so many people rate Bach the supreme composer.

Do you not then find it strange that Beethoven (presumably judging from a more authentic Beethovian perspective than yourself) should have reached such different conclusions, not only with regard to Bach but with Haydn and Mozart as well? Could this suggest that it is yourself who is failing to appreciate what Beethoven and millions of others have over the centuries, or perhaps you consider Beethoven's musical judgement to be at fault or in some way inferior to your own?

It's one thing to prefer or even dislike a composer but it's quite another to state a personal opinion as fact.

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited January 21, 2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Do you not then find it strange that Beethoven (presumably judging from a more authentic Beethovian perspective than yourself) should have reached such different conclusions, not only with regard to Bach but with Haydn and Mozart as well? Could this suggest that it is yourself who is failing to appreciate what Beethoven and millions of others have over the centuries, or perhaps you consider Beethoven's musical judgement to be at fault or in some way inferior to your own?

It's one thing to prefer or even dislike a composer but it's quite another to state a personal opinion as fact.

I said above I leave it for members of my site to judge for themselves. I stated my own position as a judgement. I do not recall using the word 'fact'. I have said many times I'm not what you'd call a classical music fan per se - whatever it is I want from this genre only Beethoven and Handel can offer it, to my wallet's relief. If others want to listen to the other stuff that's fair enough, but if they come here and say it's better than the stuff I like they'll have to argue their case. When status quo preferences are announced, Peter, you seldom question.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[urtextmeister]

I don't think your standards are too high, Rod. I think your standards need a little work.
It is a little irresponsible to make such statements about Bach unless you have truly scrutinized all of the works of this master. Of course, if you were a Bach scholar it is extremely unlikely you would have much of anything negative to say. To know him is to love him.
Your decision to dismiss such a fixture of greatness in the history of western music with only a passing knowledge of him would not fly in the world of academia (not that I am defending academia).
Furthermore, I believe Tchaikowsky is a great composer. Certainly within the world of romantic music. I say this partly based on my intimate knowledge of ballet repetoire. Having done a lot of work with ballet companies, I know these scores inside and out and I see flashes of pure, inspired genius in the pages of Swan Lake and Sleeping Beauty. The later symphonies are magnificent as well.

It is good to have strong opinions on music, but I think you could open your horizons and realize that there is great music out there besides Beethoven and Handel.

[Chaszz]

Rod cannot open his horizons. It is not lack of familiarity with Bach that causes his lack of comprehension. He is simply incapable of comprehending much great music when he hears it.

And I have listened to his Handel site, as he asked, and judged for myself, as he also asked. I have frequently during my lifetime received more pleasure from any one, of a great number of works, by Bach, than from all the works I've heard on that site over the past several months, put together. Though this may seem a little like overkill, it just happens to be true.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited January 21, 2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Rod cannot open his horizons. It is not lack of familiarity with Bach that causes his lack of comprehension. He is simply incapable of comprehending much great music when he hears it.

And I have listened to his Handel site, as he asked, and judged for myself, as he also asked. I have frequently during my lifetime received more pleasure from any one, of a great number of works, by Bach, than from all the works I've heard on that site over the past several months, put together. Though this may seem a little like overkill, it just happens to be true.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited January 21, 2004).]

If I can comprehend Beethoven and Handel I can comprehend any music. I suggest perhaps certain others here lack true critical faculties with regard to classical music?


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[spaceray]

I think it's difficult to have a conversation with a person about classical music if they only like two composers.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
If I can comprehend Beethoven and Handel I can comprehend any music. I suggest perhaps certain others here lack true critical faculties with regard to classical music?

I know your views on composers other than Beethoven and Handel but I'm interested if you regard Beethoven as 'lacking in critical faculties' by describing Bach as the God of Harmony, or for his well documented great admiration of Mozart and Haydn?

Presumably you have to concede that Beethoven did not share your disdain for Bach, Mozart, Haydn and others, so I rest my case!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by spaceray:
I think it's difficult to have a conversation with a person about classical music if they only like two composers.

Why? I can talk more about these two than most 'true' CM fans can talk about all the remainder. Despite the current chain, I'm here because I primarily want to talk about Beethoven related issues, that's what this site is primarily about.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

I know your views on composers other than Beethoven and Handel but I'm interested if you regard Beethoven as 'lacking in critical faculties' by describing Bach as the God of Harmony, or for his well documented great admiration of Mozart and Haydn?

Presumably you have to concede that Beethoven did not share your disdain for Bach, Mozart, Haydn and others, so I rest my case!

Ultimately my position is my own. It is not distain, just the music of the others you mention for the most part fails to hold my interest after years of listening to Beethoven. Beethoven never included himself in his own such assessments (openly at least), so our (mine and B's) respective positions are not really comparable. Bear in mind even Beethoven and Handel music has to be performed to a specific set of criteria for me to be satisfied with it.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Ultimately my position is my own. It is not distain, just the music of the others you mention for the most part fails to hold my interest after years of listening to Beethoven. Beethoven never included himself in his own such assessments (openly at least), so our (mine and B's) respective positions are not really comparable. Bear in mind even Beethoven and Handel music has to be performed to a specific set of criteria for me to be satisfied with it.

That's fair enough and a reasonable position to hold - but you can't state others lack critical judgement if they value Bach and Mozart.

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'Man know thyself'