Beethoven & Handel

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Rod:
And yet what other Baroque composer wrote anything that you could say surpasses Messiah? Not one I would say.

St Matthew Passion and the Mass in C Minor by Bach are AT LEAST as good as Messiah. And many learned musicologists would rank them higher. Not all would of course, and your opinion, like theirs, is a valid one, but we must conceed at least a difference of opinion on the matter.

Having said that, it is certainly true that there is a whole treasure trove of worthwhile Handel music that has been forgotten and neglected. Why is that, do you think? It is an interesting question. There must be a reason.

[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited January 18, 2004).]

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by spaceray:
A new surge of appreciation of Handel has emerged here in Canada,baroque music has become very popular and audiences are coming out in full force for concerts of Handel ,Bach ,Vivaldi,Purcell and all.
At the music schools the classes concerned with baroque are full to the brim,choirs and small ensembles vocal and otherwise abound.Most of the students are young.
Authentic instruments are a big thing especially here in British Coloumbia home of the ancient tree.

It seems that in the past few decades there has been a revival of interest in baroque music - a baroque renaissance, if you like.Not only baroque, but lots of forms of 'early music', including renaissance music and even medieval music.

For instance, here in Britain in 1995 there were concerts, exhibitions and media coverage of the tricentenial - the 300th aniversary - of the death of Purcell. And for a long time, for many decades before then, he had been virtually forgotten.

For long we have lived under the musical shadow of the romantic 19th century, and while that is not a bad thing in itself, it is a shame when that eclipses interest in earlier music. There should be a broader scope, and a broader scope has arisen in recent years. We can see this is evidence also with the popularity for authentic music performances, using historical instruments and performance techniques, etc, which has been around, I think, since the 1970s.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
St Matthew Passion and the Mass in C Minor by Bach are AT LEAST as good as Messiah. And many learned musicologists would rank them higher. Not all would of course, and your opinion, like theirs, is a valid one, but we must conceed at least a difference of opinion on the matter.

Having said that, it is certainly true that there is a whole treasure trove of worthwhile Handel music that has been forgotten and neglected. Why is that, do you think? It is an interesting question. There must be a reason.

[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited January 18, 2004).]

Oratorio, Operas based on ancient legends and myths and most of all Castratti (understandably!)went out of fashion. But then so did Mozart and Bach, but Handel still has not been fully resurrected to his true position on an international scale.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited January 18, 2004).]

[urtextmeister]

I think fashion is a key word. For a while, Bach was out of fashion. Everyone seemed to find the more syrupy music of his sons and other pre-classical composers more pleasing.

Then, when the dust was beginning to settle from the romantic era, we realized that Bach was really great, though we could only listen to him in overblown, romanticized arrangements.

Then we realized our mistake--Bach's music was only great when played on historically accurate instruments.

Then Rod came along and realized that it isn't Bach who is great. It's Handel!

I have tried to ignore fashions, though I agree it is impossible. I have tried to search out music from all eras and listen to it with complete openess. So far there is one composer that I can't quite appreciate--Hindemith. I am still trying, however, and I believe one day I will hear what others do in this esteemed 20th century composer.

I used to attend a lot of concerts conducted by Dennis Russell Davies (I also went to school with his daughter by the way). I always admired how he could approach a symphony by the Beethoven or a piece by Joe Schmoe for Hairdryer, Kazoos and string orchestra with the same intensity and the same openness.

Maybe when all is said and done, Beethoven or Bach (or Handel) will turn out to be the truly "great" composer, but who among us is qualified to say that? And by saying that, is he or she just starting another fashion trend?

[Rod]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
[B] St Matthew Passion and the Mass in C Minor by Bach are AT LEAST as good as Messiah. And many learned musicologists would rank them higher. QUOTE]

I don't think I could listen to either of these works to the end without staring at my watch. I do not feel that Bach could compose compelling music drama. Perhaps that was not a prerequisite for church music at the time, but nevertheless I find listening to Bach in general a tedious experience from a Beethovenian perspective.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[spaceray]

[quote]Originally posted by Rod:

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:

I don't think I could listen to either of these works to the end without staring at my watch. I do not feel that Bach could compose compelling music drama. Perhaps that was not a prerequisite for church music at the time, but nevertheless I find listening to Bach in general a tedious experience from a Beethovenian perspective.

I have been enjoying listening to Bach Concertos a lot lately performed by two of your least favorite musicians ,as I dimly recall,Glenn Gould and Leonard Bernstein.
I agree that Bach was not the great dramatist in the way that Handel was but it seems foolish to compare opera in the Italian style to the church music of a devoted Lutherin.I could be wrong.

[Rod]

Originally posted by spaceray:
I have been enjoying listening to Bach Concertos a lot lately performed by two of your least favorite musicians ,as I dimly recall,Glenn Gould and Leonard Bernstein.
I agree that Bach was not the great dramatist in the way that Handel was but it seems foolish to compare opera in the Italian style to the church music of a devoted Lutherin.I could be wrong.

Handel was a devout Protestant too, but I'm not concerned with 'styles'. Unless we are to regard Bach as a specialist case, unlike the other big name composers, I judge him in the same way as I do the others. Bach wrote secular music too.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 19, 2004).]

[urtextmeister]

Rod,

Is there room in your vacuum for me?

How can you say you are not concerned with styles? Do you have some kind of "Good Music Meter" that can measure Ravel against Handel, Stravinsky against Mozart, Hank Williams against Hildegard von Bingen?

I think judging a composer by how they have mastered a particular style is extremely important. Listening to blues song by one of the masters of the genre and knowing nothing of the history of this style and then comparing it to a Handel aria is pointless. Handel wins out because he avoids parallel fifths?

Is there something beyond mastering a style and creating a body of works in that style? Yes, I believe there is, but that's where it becomes tricky and hard to pinpoint. One might even need to pull out the "S" word. (Shudder). Subjectivity!

Here are my impressions which are undoubtedly tainted by my subjectivity:

I enjoy listening to Handel's Messiah and have done so many times, but when I listen to a work like Bach's St. Matthew Passion I am blown away. I feel like I am in the presence of greatness I can never fully understand (I am not religious, by the way). I believe some of the concertos such as the double concerto in d minor are the most sublime and perfect pieces in the whole baroque concerto genre. I have been playing the WTC for thirty years and will probably continue to do so for the rest of my life and I hope to get only a glimpse of the genuis behind these pieces, casually written for education and amusement of a few pieces. Goldberg variations, etc. If this isn't genius, I don't know what is.

Handel wrote some nice suites for keyboard.

Growing up, I was always got the impression that Bach was the ultimate musical genius. Handel was usually towards the end of the chapter along with Vivaldi, Rameau, Telemann.

This is probably not fair and I do plan to listen to more Handel in the future and join the Handel web site and maybe some day have as much appreciation for G.F. as you do Rod, but for now J.S. comes up number one on my "Good Music Meter."

[Rod]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
Rod,

Is there room in your vacuum for me? ...

Always room in my vacuum. Reading your post I get the impression you have not heard much Handel if you rate him alongside the likes of Teleman and Vivaldi. I recommend you join my site. You have missed a ton of good stuff already, but I've tons more yet to come and this is the unusual feature about Handel - the vast number of good quality items he produced. Bach may have had some good 'hits', but I've heard alot of his stuff both vocal and instrumental that comes across as very bland and formulaic by Handel's standards. This is why I place Handel with Beethoven as thier respective methods with music seem to work every time, regardless as to whether the piece is big or small, serious or jolly. To put it crudely, these composers offer the most consistant level of quality output from what I have heard.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[v russo]

Rod:

Bach had no 'hits' and his music was formally the most significant in western music history, ...thats all. You may prefer Handel (who was a great composer in his own right)but do not trivialize the great J.S. BACH.

What you hear as bland music, I hear as profound and spirtually soaring sonic architecture.

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v russo

[Rod]

Originally posted by v russo:
Rod:


...What you hear as bland music, I hear as profound and spirtually soaring sonic architecture.

So be it!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[urtextmeister]

It is utterly outrageous to describe Bach's music as bland and formulaic. I think most of the universe agrees with me. I believe you are fighting an uphill battle when you try to portray Handel as a better composer.

I do, however, admire your steadfast promotion of Mr. Handel.

By the way, I did not say that I, personally, would place Handel alongside Vivaldi, Telemann, etc. I think Vivaldi was very inconsistent and churned out some very ordinary music along with some ingenious works. Telemann maybe was closer to the level of Handel.

[Rod]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
It is utterly outrageous to describe Bach's music as bland and formulaic. I think most of the universe agrees with me. I believe you are fighting an uphill battle when you try to portray Handel as a better composer.

I do, however, admire your steadfast promotion of Mr. Handel.

By the way, I did not say that I, personally, would place Handel alongside Vivaldi, Telemann, etc. I think Vivaldi was very inconsistent and churned out some very ordinary music along with some ingenious works. Telemann maybe was closer to the level of Handel.

I said bland and formulaic compared to HANDEL's. Put it this way, much of what I have heard from Bach lacks the 'personal touch' that I always expect from Handel. I presume you reference to my 'uphill battle' implies you follow the status quo position that Bach is the greater of the two, for many greater than Beethoven also. I say the battle is not mine, I've got Handel's music. I remember a time when I was repeatedly rubbished over my insistance on using authentic instruments for Beethoven, these days I am rubbished no more. Perhaps I am ahead of my time!?



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
It is utterly outrageous to describe Bach's music as bland and formulaic. I think most of the universe agrees with me. I believe you are fighting an uphill battle when you try to portray Handel as a better composer.

I do, however, admire your steadfast promotion of Mr. Handel.

By the way, I did not say that I, personally, would place Handel alongside Vivaldi, Telemann, etc. I think Vivaldi was very inconsistent and churned out some very ordinary music along with some ingenious works. Telemann maybe was closer to the level of Handel.

Beethoven himself regarded Handel as the greatest composer - He also however had the greatest admiration for Mozart, Bach, Haydn, Gluck and never expressed the views on these composer voiced by a certain member of this forum!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Beethoven himself regarded Handel as the greatest composer - He also however had the greatest admiration for Mozart, Bach, Haydn, Gluck and never expressed the views on these composer voiced by a certain member of this forum!

You will recall the anecdote to be found in Thayer whereby Beethoven when questioned would not be drawn about why he rated Handel above Mozart, saying only, after some provocation, 'on Olympus everyone knows who is King!'


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 20, 2004).]