Beethoven & Handel

[Rod]

Originally posted by v russo:


...and Beethoven was well aware of Bach in his lifetime. His later piano works clearly reveal this. The last faze in his so called "late period" would not have been what it was without J.S. Bach.

And yet it was for Handel that Beethoven reserved the ultimate praise during this last decade of his life. I suggest Beethoven's musical development during the late period encompasses a far wider appreciation of the earlier music than just that of Bach.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Schubert was just finding his own voice at the time of his tragic death and the works produced from the age of 25-31 are astounding by anyone's standards - For me his great works from this last period are the String quintet, the last 3 sonatas, the F minor Fantasy for piano duet, the last 2 piano trios, the last 2 symphonies, the last 2 masses, Winterriese, many of the songs and the opera Fierabras.

Yet why do I so often get the impression of a roughly made patchwork quilt of other composers styles when listening to Schubert? Though Beethoven too was influenced by others I suggest Beethoven at a similar age had a vastly superior grasp of all things musical.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 04, 2004).]

[Opus131]

Originally posted by Rod:
Yet why do I so often get the impression of a roughly made patchwork quilt of other composers styles when listening to Schubert? Though Beethoven too was influenced by others I suggest Beethoven at a similar age had a vastly superior grasp of all things musical.

But then again, Beethoven was a better trained musician, with time, i'm sure Schubert would have been able to find his own way.

I think people underestimate the importance of the level of education of a composer, which is much more relevant of whatever innate 'genious' an artist posses.

Beethoven received early training by his father, was a working musician from a very early age and found many opporunities to learn his lessions.

Mozart was even more fortunate of having the guidance of a well established and gifted composer, Leopold Mozart, and does anybody wonders his development was so incredibly rapid ?!?

On the other end, what about Haydn, who never received proper training untill he was 17 and was mostly self trained after that whilst he struggled to fight complete starvation and utter poverty ?!? And everybody is surpised his development was so painstakingly slow ?!?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Opus131:
But then again, Beethoven was a better trained musician, with time, i'm sure Schubert would have been able to find his own way.

I think people underestimate the importance of the level of education of a composer, which is much more relevant of whatever innate 'genious' an artist posses.

Beethoven received early training by his father, was a working musician from a very early age and found many opporunities to learn his lessions.

Mozart was even more fortunate of having the guidance of a well established and gifted composer, Leopold Mozart, and does anybody wonders his development was so incredibly rapid ?!?

On the other end, what about Haydn, who never received proper training untill he was 17 and was mostly self trained after that whilst he struggled to fight complete starvation and utter poverty ?!? And everybody is surpised his development was so painstakingly slow ?!?

Schubert was pretty well trained himself having studied with Salieri for 5 years!

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'Man know thyself'

[v russo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
[B] And yet it was for Handel that Beethoven reserved the ultimate praise during this last decade of his life. I suggest Beethoven's musical development during the late period encompasses a far wider appreciation of the earlier music than just that of Bach.

yes, Bach and Handel, ...you are correct. I was just addressing an earlier comment. Old Beethoven did wonders with this Neo-Baroque approach!


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v russo

[Chaszz]

[quote]Originally posted by v russo:
[b]

Originally posted by Rod:
And yet it was for Handel that Beethoven reserved the ultimate praise during this last decade of his life. I suggest Beethoven's musical development during the late period encompasses a far wider appreciation of the earlier music than just that of Bach.

yes, Bach and Handel, ...you are correct. I was just addressing an earlier comment. Old Beethoven did wonders with this Neo-Baroque approach!

As Steppenwolf said above, the vast majority of Bach's music was unknown to Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven. That the few keyboard works which were in wide currency at the time, such as the Well-Tempered Clavier, and an occasional motet, did have an influence on M. and B. is testament to the amount of power Bach packed into anything he wrote. But had Beethoven known all the cantatas, oratorios, and other church works such as the B Minor Mass, other masses, the Magnificats, plus Bach's concertos and orhcestral works, plus the solo violin and cello sonatas and partitas, plus more of the vast organ works, I'm sure his opinion of Bach would have been significantly greater than it was. Not that Bach would necessarily have outranked Handel in his mind, we can never know that. But he had pitifully little to judge Bach on. To me Bach's greatest compositions are his church works, with solists, chorus, and the festive orchestra including strings, flutes, oboes, trumpets and kettledrums. Of this vast, glorious and profound output Beethoven knew absolutely NOTHING.


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited January 07, 2004).]

[v russo]

J.S. Bach and Haydn were the two most significant figures in classical music history. There impact and innovations go without question. There forms were the homes that every individual composer since has been trying to decorate and re-decorate as his own.

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v russo

[Pastorali]

Originally posted by v russo:
J.S. Bach and Haydn were the two most significant figures in classical music history. There impact and innovations go without question. There forms were the homes that every individual composer since has been trying to decorate and re-decorate as his own.

You're right, but you surely meant beside of Beethoven, not? No doubt, they have given the forms, but I don't believe Beethoven has just decorated it, he increased it.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
. Of this vast, glorious and profound output Beethoven knew absolutely NOTHING.


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited January 07, 2004).]

I have heard enough of Bach that Beethoven never heard to know that Handel was the better composer.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
I have heard enough of Bach that Beethoven never heard to know that Handel was the better composer.

I was talking about Beethoven listening to it, not you.

[v russo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pastorali:
[B] You're right, but you surely meant beside of Beethoven, not? No doubt, they have given the forms, but I don't believe Beethoven has just decorated it, he increased it.

Beethoven is my favorite composer. I was just giving old Bach and pappa Haydn thier due. Beethoven expanded, changed and then destroyed these forms in a way. He is the greatest innovator in the history of western music in my opinion. He is also the great stepping stone of modern music. His music is the most profound and urgent of anyone I have ever heard!!





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v russo

[Amalie]

[quote]Originally posted by v russo:
[b]

Originally posted by Pastorali:
You're right, but you surely meant beside of Beethoven, not? No doubt, they have given the forms, but I don't believe Beethoven has just decorated it, he increased it.

Beethoven is my favorite composer. I was just giving old Bach and pappa Haydn thier due. Beethoven expanded, changed and then destroyed these forms in a way. He is the greatest innovator in the history of western music in my opinion. He is also the great stepping stone of modern music. His music is the most profound and urgent of anyone I have ever heard!!

I have often pondered this point, and I am sure you are right that Beethoven was the greatest innovator in western music.
The late romantic symphonies of Bruckner, Brahms and Mahler, derive directly
from Beethoven's work. The other point is that I think that it is even possible to say that we can see a line of descent from B to modern experimentalists such as Schoenberg and Bartok, whose work, I think, is prefigured in Beethoven's late quartets and sonatas.
So you have the position with Beethoven that he is both the culminating glory of the enlightenment music of Haydn and Mozart, Bach and Handel, and the fountainhead and source of all the great music that followed him, truly that really places him at the very pinnacle of western music.


[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited January 08, 2004).]

[v russo]

Amalie,

EXACTLY!

8)

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v russo

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I was talking about Beethoven listening to it, not you.

Well, I can listen to it for him in his absence! I might add how many of Handel's many vocal masterpieces other than Messiah, some better than Messiah in my opinion, are generally known today? After hundreds of years? Not many. And yet what other Baroque composer wrote anything that you could say surpasses Messiah? Not one I would say.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, I can listen to it for him in his absence! I might add how many of Handel's many vocal masterpieces other than Messiah, some better than Messiah in my opinion, are generally known today? After hundreds of years? Not many. And yet what other Baroque composer wrote anything that you could say surpasses Messiah? Not one I would say.

A new surge of appreciation of Handel has emerged here in Canada,baroque music has become very popular and audiences are coming out in full force for concerts of Handel ,Bach ,Vivaldi,Purcell and all.
At the music schools the classes concerned with baroque are full to the brim,choirs and small ensembles vocal and otherwise abound.Most of the students are young.
Authentic instruments are a big thing especially here in British Coloumbia home of the ancient tree.