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    Beethoven & Handel

    "Hier ist die Wahrheit"(Here is the Truth); this tribute was famously made by Beethoven to the greatness of Händel, in reference to a forty-volume edition of his major works which Beethoven had received as a gift. It is well known that Beethoven ranked Händel as the greatest composer, confiding to his English friend Cipriani Potter that he rated him higher even than Mozart.

    Most modern critics and musicians (myself included) would rank Bach and Mozart higher than Händel. To such people Beethoven's opinion is problematic. Does Beethoven's indisputable talent make him more qualified to judge the merit of others? Does such an opinion expressed by such a towering genius indicate some sort of objective truth, that Händel's music is objectively better than Bach's and Mozart's? In my opinion, the answer is no.

    Two points must be considered. Firstly, during Beethoven's lifetime Bach was neglected. Although he was remembered as a talented organist, nevertheless his orchestral compositions were forgotten. It was not until the late 1820s when a performance of St Matthew Passion, conducted by the young Felix Mendelsonn, prompted a Bach rennaisance. Therefore it is quite likely that Beethoven never had an opportunity to study the orchestral music of Bach in sufficient detail to give an informed opinion on his merit.

    Secondly, throughout his life Beethoven lived under the shadow of Mozart, and was consequently at pains to distance himself from his predecessor. As a child, his father had tried to make the young Beethoven into another Mozart-style child prodigy, and when his efforts failed the young boy was beaten savagely. This would be enough to turn someone against Mozart for life! In his adulthood there is evidence that Beethoven strongly resented comparisons to his musical predecessor, and petty, trivial criticisms (such as the accusation that Cosi fan Tutti was "immoral") are further evidence of this. So my suggestion is that Beethoven, in a competitive spirit, was reluctant to give Mozart full credit. Nevertheless it cannot be denied that Beethoven owed far more to the achievements of Mozart in the development of his own style than to Händel. For instance, Mozart had perfected the classical symphonic form and extended it to its furthest limits, and it was on this firm foundation that Beethoven's mamouth symphonic developments were constructed. Without Mozart, and equally without Haydn, there would have been no Eroica. By contrast the influence of Händel on Beethoven's work was far more abstract, at best, and often non-existent. His admiration for Händel was expressed late in life, when he appeared to have 'discovered' him. But long before he discovered the baroque composer he was using and extending the musical forms developed by Haydn and Mozart, to which Händel contributed nothing more than a very indirect influence, if any.

    If, then, we take away Bach and Mozart, then out of those remaining Händel is certainly the best. Of course, this assessment also excludes all the great composers who came later - we will never know what Beethoven would have thought of them.


    [This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited December 17, 2003).]
    "It is only as an aesthetic experience that existence is eternally justified" - Nietzsche

    #2
    Good points, although I think you may have overstated the Mozart bit a little. For example, I think his "Cosi fan Tutti as immoral" is enough in character for him that it cannot easily be dismissed as a cheap shot against Mozart.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Steppenwolf:


      Most modern critics and musicians (myself included) would rank Bach and Mozart higher than Händel.
      I would agree with Beethoven and disagree with you, without a shadow of a doubt. If you join my Handel site you will see, or rather hear, the truth of it!
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/handelforum/


      ------------------
      "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

      [This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 17, 2003).]
      http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Rod:
        I would agree with Beethoven and disagree with you, without a shadow of a doubt. If you join my Handel site you will see, or rather hear, the truth of it!
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/handelforum/

        Rod, I also do support your Handel site (as less I do know about Handel, I like your enthusiasme!)

        ...and still in mind B's. qoutes about him...
        http://www.beethoven.li/seiten/hauptseiten/links.html

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Pastorali:
          Rod, I also do support your Handel site (as less I do know about Handel, I like your enthusiasme!)

          ...and still in mind B's. qoutes about him...
          http://www.beethoven.li/seiten/hauptseiten/links.html

          But from your experience do you think Beethoven got it wrong about Handel?

          Thanks for putting my site on your links page. I need all the promotion I can get, Handel is not taken very seriously and I have had difficulty persuading people to join!

          http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Rod:
            But from your experience do you think Beethoven got it wrong about Handel?

            NO!!! I would never say that!!
            As I was a boy I always looked with admiration to CM. I found no way to it at that time, but I knew the time will come...I think it's the same procedure with Handel to me.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
              Most modern critics and musicians (myself included) would rank Bach and Mozart higher than Händel. To such people Beethoven's opinion is problematic. Does Beethoven's indisputable talent make him more qualified to judge the merit of others?

              I don't think it necessary to choose between them!



              ------------------
              'Man know thyself'
              'Man know thyself'

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Rod:
                I would agree with Beethoven and disagree with you, without a shadow of a doubt. If you join my Handel site you will see, or rather hear, the truth of it!


                Who gets the number 1 spot in your book, Beethoven or Handel? If you think that pointless (as I do) then it is equally as irrelevant regarding composers such as Bach and Mozart. You are quite right to promote Handel and I entirely agree that he has been unjustly neglected, so were Bach and Schubert for many years. Plug for Schubert - the last two Masses are quite wonderful!

                ------------------
                'Man know thyself'
                'Man know thyself'

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Peter:
                  Who gets the number 1 spot in your book, Beethoven or Handel?
                  In some respects Beethoven, but by other criteria Handel. Handel by volume is really a stage composer whereas you can count Beethoven's stage works on one hand. Thus I would say Handel by volume is the king of the stage, though Fidelio is the greatest opera.

                  Beethoven is obviously more an instrumental composer and thus by volume is the king of instrumental music, though I doubt even Beethoven could have bettered the quality of Handel's op6 concertos using the same instrumental forces.

                  Though their music is in many ways very different, what both have in common is in my mind a perfect control of compositional form and content and of heart and mind, with a strong rhetorical tendancy to their music. The others do not have these things in balance to such a great extent.

                  ------------------
                  "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

                  [This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 18, 2003).]
                  http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Peter:
                    Plug for Schubert - the last two Masses are quite wonderful!

                    I know some people who think Schubert had a greater genius than Beethoven, but you know I find his music sometimes a little clumsy, his ideas seem poorly put together to me, certainly by Beethovenian standards (ie the perfect standard). Perhaps under Beethoven's shadow he was jumping ahead of himself, not that he had much time left to jump, I accept.

                    ------------------
                    "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
                    http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Rod:
                      I know some people who think Schubert had a greater genius than Beethoven, but you know I find his music sometimes a little clumsy, his ideas seem poorly put together to me, certainly by Beethovenian standards (ie the perfect standard). Perhaps under Beethoven's shadow he was jumping ahead of himself, not that he had much time left to jump, I accept.

                      But also B. knew too less about Schubert. And then it was too late, before his death. But he was inspired about the mass and quality of Schubert's songs. (Lieder)

                      "Wahrlich, in dem Schubert wohnt ein göttlicher Funke"

                      "Indeed, in that Schubert a god's spark is living."

                      But I think too, he is standing somewhere in B's. shadow.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Rod:
                        I know some people who think Schubert had a greater genius than Beethoven, but you know I find his music sometimes a little clumsy, his ideas seem poorly put together to me, certainly by Beethovenian standards (ie the perfect standard). Perhaps under Beethoven's shadow he was jumping ahead of himself, not that he had much time left to jump, I accept.

                        Schubert was just finding his own voice at the time of his tragic death and the works produced from the age of 25-31 are astounding by anyone's standards - For me his great works from this last period are the String quintet, the last 3 sonatas, the F minor Fantasy for piano duet, the last 2 piano trios, the last 2 symphonies, the last 2 masses, Winterriese, many of the songs and the opera Fierabras.

                        ------------------
                        'Man know thyself'
                        'Man know thyself'

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I have to agree with the above songs as I enjoy them very much as well. Particularly Die Winterreise (The Winter's Journey) written in 1827 just a year before his death. So haunting.

                          ------------------
                          'Truth and beauty joined'
                          'Truth and beauty joined'

                          Comment


                            #14
                            ... Bump!
                            "It is only as an aesthetic experience that existence is eternally justified" - Nietzsche

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Never underestimate the judgement of an artist. He is a creator and has an invisable bond or kinship with other creators. He is not a musician (in the interpretive sense) or a critic (ugh!)He makes anew for the musician to perform and the analist to judge.

                              ...and Beethoven was well aware of Bach in his lifetime. His later piano works clearly reveal this. The last faze in his so called "late period" would not have been what it was without J.S. Bach.

                              ------------------
                              v russo
                              v russo

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