To Late to Rate a Work's Date?

[Geratlas]

"GOOD MUSIC that... by Beethoven, is it? - Ha! So I thaught - Wonder when it was written? - about 1820?" Perhaps you'll find it a bit strange to wonder when Beethoven's works actually came to be. I myself find it both interesting and amusing to guess when a specific work evolved/got composed, under what circumstances, or to what purpose and so forth. Just guessing, however, isn't wished for. I of course find it right as good to actually KNOW when (and how for that matter) the works came to be. Thus I sadly must accept the fact that many of them are only dated presumably. For those of you who would like to join me in a resonement about plausible dates for such works, or you who might present us with 'real' dates, I created this topic. Which of LvB's all works to comment is up to yourself. Hereby I merely offer you alternative suggestions [to ad-lib or to state 'the fact']:
Opp.13,19,51,52no4,138;WoO.5,55,82; KHA#5,22; Hess#19,20,38,39(?),143!, and 298.
=== EVERY REPLY FROM YOU IS MOST HEARTILY WELCOME! ===
(If you find any of my topics rediculous feel free to tell me so.)
/ F. Geratlas Wish You Well. Be so

[This message has been edited by Geratlas (edited January 12, 2004).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Very well, I shall give you best dates for Hess 19, since you bring it up. It was composed in the period between 1793 and 96, but only fragments remained (or perhaps were ever composed) and it was reconstructed/completed by Zellner in 1862. One of the problems we shall run into with this topic is that certainties are not there for some things (like this one ) so there is only a range available. Also, there are sevral pieces that B composed in a certain year, however he didn't publish it, then 15 years later he totally revised it and published it then. Which date do you give? I am intrigued with this topic, it is one of the things that I do, but I have not a lot of evidence to research with, only the Biamonti listings. Well, we shall keep after it and see what gives, then, eh?


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Geratlas]

Wow, G U R N ! [see above] Thanks . I didn't expect anyone to take note of my suggestions. Put them there just because they interested me especially. Concerning the 'Quintett' I have some information which I don't know how to interpret correctly. With this and other references I have a 'proposed' scenario for this work. But night enfolds, I simply don't have the time right now. Let me return to this matter before Thursday / So long, Geratlas sending :::

[melvyn]

I am also interested in this topic, as I am making up a complete set of CDs with all of Beethoven's recorded work in chronological order (as far as is possible). It's a fascinating project, and quite enlightening.

I could answer your questions with the research I have done, but there are conflicting dates for a lot of his works, and works were often started in one year and completed in another year, sometimes up to 10 years later. Whereabouts do you place a work like that? Different movements of the same work would be completed at different times.

On the other hand, the exact month of composition is known for some works, and in one case, the exact day.

Even reference books sometimes have conflicting dates for the same work. How do we know which dates are right (if any)?

I believe Beethoven usually had many works 'in development' at the same time, which add can add further confusion. Sometimes major works were completed within days of each other.

Melvyn.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by melvyn:
I am also interested in this topic, as I am making up a complete set of CDs with all of Beethoven's recorded work in chronological order (as far as is possible). It's a fascinating project, and quite enlightening.

I could answer your questions with the research I have done, but there are conflicting dates for a lot of his works, and works were often started in one year and completed in another year, sometimes up to 10 years later. Whereabouts do you place a work like that? Different movements of the same work would be completed at different times.

On the other hand, the exact month of composition is known for some works, and in one case, the exact day.

Even reference books sometimes have conflicting dates for the same work. How do we know which dates are right (if any)?

I believe Beethoven usually had many works 'in development' at the same time, which add can add further confusion. Sometimes major works were completed within days of each other.

Melvyn.

Melvyn, this is exactly the situation as I have found it. I haven't really brought up chronology here because I didn't think anyone else was interested, but obviously I was wrong. Oddly, I got into it for the same reason that you are doing now, which is I made a set of mp3 disks with all the instrumental works in essentially chronological order. They are great to listen to that way and I do it frequently. If you are needing any further information, perhaps I can be of some assistance to you, at least I can send you a complete Biamonti listing in Word format if you would like it. Let me know.



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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Geratlas:
Wow, G U R N ! [see above] Thanks . I didn't expect anyone to take note of my suggestions. Put them there just because they interested me especially. Concerning the 'Quintett' I have some information which I don't know how to interpret correctly. With this and other references I have a 'proposed' scenario for this work. But night enfolds, I simply don't have the time right now. Let me return to this matter before Thursday / So long, Geratlas sending :::

Geratlas,
As you see above, I have been chasing down this info for a while, so I am pleased to share it if you are interested, and also to add to my knowledge whenever possible. So I will keep up with this thread, hopefully there will be many contributors.



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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[melvyn]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Melvyn, this is exactly the situation as I have found it. I haven't really brought up chronology here because I didn't think anyone else was interested, but obviously I was wrong. Oddly, I got into it for the same reason that you are doing now, which is I made a set of mp3 disks with all the instrumental works in essentially chronological order. They are great to listen to that way and I do it frequently. If you are needing any further information, perhaps I can be of some assistance to you, at least I can send you a complete Biamonti listing in Word format if you would like it. Let me know.

Hello Gurn

You already sent it to me when I joined this forum, and very grateful I am too! It cleared up many questions, and not only about dates.

When you say that you are making up a set of his 'Instrumental works' what do you mean? Most of his works are instrumental. Did you mean 'Orchestral works' or works without singers? Sorry if this is a dumb question!

Melvyn.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Melvyn, this is exactly the situation as I have found it. I haven't really brought up chronology here because I didn't think anyone else was interested, but obviously I was wrong. Oddly, I got into it for the same reason that you are doing now, which is I made a set of mp3 disks with all the instrumental works in essentially chronological order. They are great to listen to that way and I do it frequently. If you are needing any further information, perhaps I can be of some assistance to you, at least I can send you a complete Biamonti listing in Word format if you would like it. Let me know.

The works are listed in chronological order on this site.

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'Man know thyself'

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by melvyn:
Hello Gurn

You already sent it to me when I joined this forum, and very grateful I am too! It cleared up many questions, and not only about dates.

When you say that you are making up a set of his 'Instrumental works' what do you mean? Most of his works are instrumental. Did you mean 'Orchestral works' or works without singers? Sorry if this is a dumb question!

Melvyn.

Melvyn,
No dumb questions, that's my motto. No, I meant works without singers (except Choral Fantasy and the 9th, of course). I love to listen to my music this way, I do this with Mozart too, so a Symphony may be followed by a Septet and then a sonata for piano, then one for violin & piano etc., it not only blends the genres together better so you listen to them better, but also you get to see how things evolved. One of my little quirks, I'm afraid! ;-)



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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Peter:
The works are listed in chronological order on this site.

Yes, and that is great. I am wondering though, how many people have taken advantage of the wealth of information that you have offered them?


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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[spaceray]

I have used this works list often and refered to all the pages here at one time or another.

[Geratlas]

GURN! : MELVYN! JUST AN IDEA, SO FAR...
You two have shown an jolly good interest to this topic (even before I did, I'm sure) which pleases me enormously, because I I have always hoped to be able to exchange theories with others, but have never met an oppurtunity. ~ Until now... Upon realizing that there are more than me who eagerly seek to derive the origins of Beethoven's works I can't withhold from propose to you a ardent suggestion to try in some way (any way!) to get the 3 of us (others also welcome, ofcourse!) to collaborate in a focused, and maybe also thorough manner, yet sound and relaxed. Tell me if you find this idea appealling, and/or how to improve and organize it for mutual understanding. (It's a bit extreme, perhaps, but with general consensa and means to do this smoothly I sense that there are great rewards awaiting for us, as well as other members.) What you say? Take it as you yourself like it and take your time =No hurry.
/ Yours Friendly Geratlas sending over to you :::

[This message has been edited by Geratlas (edited January 13, 2004).]

[melvyn]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Melvyn,
No dumb questions, that's my motto. No, I meant works without singers (except Choral Fantasy and the 9th, of course). I love to listen to my music this way, I do this with Mozart too, so a Symphony may be followed by a Septet and then a sonata for piano, then one for violin & piano etc., it not only blends the genres together better so you listen to them better, but also you get to see how things evolved. One of my little quirks, I'm afraid! ;-)

My feelings exactly. It makes great sense to listen to the works in chronological order, and to try to piece together the thought processes behind them, and the way Beethoven's mind and skills evolved over his lifetime.

It is also much easier to put the works into context with what was happening in his life at the time.

To Geratlas: I think yours is an interesting idea, although such a discussion might raise more questions than it answers! It would need a dedicated group to be set up to discuss this one topic only (which would be no problem) and to share information. Would there be enough interest in such a group?

Melvyn.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, this idea intrigues me also, but I don't know how much time I will be able to devote to it as the pressures of business use up much of my creative processes. But whatever I can do, let me know and I shall try anyway.


------------------
Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Geratlas]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Well, this idea intrigues me also, but I don't know how much time I will be able to devote to it as the pressures of business use up much of my creative processes. But whatever I can do, let me know and I shall try anyway.

I CAN WELL UNDERSTAND YOU, GURN.
To be honest my own sparetime is getting sparse now, as well. But we don't need to be so extreme as I first put it. I believe that I'm the one who has to make the first move then. During the night I got a arousing idea: I shall make listings of all the works, yet only display about 20-40 each week (50-80 each month) beginning with the works dated earliest and make my way through all works in an assumed chronological order. Here comes the lovely part: the listing I will tag 'Preliminary', and invite all members to question/discussing the listed works, or contribute to the list itself with perhaps B's whereabouts and so on.
Then I will take the replies in account as I revise the listing, thus tagging it as 'checked'. By doing so you and other can surmise for the things that interests most (I will give dates from multiple sources, together with reference# from the traditional work catalogs.) And I assure you, I will NOT use prose in the manner of the large note below. Daunting task, yet most realistic to my mind. Do you think it's worth a try?
/ Your Friend Geratlas sendig over to you.

[This message has been edited by Geratlas (edited January 15, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Geratlas (edited January 15, 2004).]