Beethoven and Schubert

[urtextmeister]

I seem to remember from my music history textbooks that while Beethoven was one of the last "classical" composers, Schubert was one of the first "romantic" composers.
I don't want to open that can of worms again, but maybe the reason for this traditional dividing line is that Schubert had less success in achieving that balance and closure in traditional sonata form than Beethoven, but was a master of the more lyrical form such as the lied.
Take Winterreisse, for instance--a song cycle previously mentioned by Joy. In it's final version, I believe Das Leiermann is the final song. What classical composer would think of ending a piece with such an uncertain question mark of a piece?
This, I believe, the crucial feature of the romantic composers--things did not have to resolve. There did not need to be an answer to every question.

Getting back to conflict, I do think it is interesting how Schubert deals with this so differently (not, in my opinion, poorly, but I will admit that in some sontatas in particular, it is somehow unsatifying). What is really interesting is how Mahler continues this is in his symphonies. It sort of becomes a conflict between his sentiment for the past and his pessimism about the future. Irony and sincerity. A very different sort of conflict.

[Geratlas]

Originally posted by Rod:
I view all classical music by Beethoven's standard. That's why I think so much of it is rubbish! As I have said many times before, by this standard only Handel can be considered in the same league from what I have heard.

YOU HAVE A POINT here, ROD.
I say LvB in his music got all the elements right (such as harmony, rhythm, theme and thereby a unprecedent and still impostcedent 'motion'=forcation) blessed with his noble soul and witty humour whereas nearly all other composers misses a, not vital, but crucial element. Those who came close enough were,to my mind, Mozart, Haydn and Händel (with a questionmark for JSB). But what I am trying to say to you, is that not all music should be read in the light of a Händelian/Beethovenian sun. Schubert's music is to me a right as fine as B's or Mozart's yet somewhat unrefined but just as promising.
(I assume you are of other opinion. That's okay. Let me so 'hear' it, and I will 'listen'.) / Sincerely Yours Geratlas s.o.t.y.:::

[Amalie]

Does anyone know more about Schubert's 4th Symphony, and why was it so called his 'Tragic' symphony. Was it because of personal tragedy?


[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited January 12, 2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Amalie:
Does anyone know more about Schubert's 4th Symphony, and why was it so called his 'Tragic' symphony. Was it because of personal tragedy?


[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited January 12, 2004).]

The 4th was given the title 'Tragic' by Schubert himself - he was trying to create a Beethovian symphony and in Beethoven's dramatic key of C minor. Despite some wonderful moments and a very impressive opening, the 19 year old Schubert failed in his ambition. In his next two symphonies he turned to Mozart and Rossini, but it was only with the 8th (unfinished) that he found his own voice.

Whilst composing the 4th he was in love with Therese grob and may have been contemplating marriage - to this end he also needed more income and had applied for a teaching position at Laibach - he was turned down for this and his hopes of marriage were dashed, but this did not occur until september 1816, whilst the Tragic symphony was composed in the first few months of 1816.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited January 13, 2004).]

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Peter:
The 4th was given the title 'Tragic' by Schubert himself - he was trying to create a Beethovian symphony and in Beethoven's dramatic key of C minor. Despite some wonderful moments and a very impressive opening, the 19 year old Schubert failed in his ambition. In his next two symphonies he turned to Mozart and Rossini, but it was only with the 8th
(unfinished) that he found his own voice.

Thankyou for this information Peter,
It goes to show the scope of his ambition at such a young age.
I understand that Schubert also wrote about 17 Operas, do we know if any have survived.
Has any light been shed on why Schubert's 8th sympnony is unfinished?

Thankyou for your thoughts.

[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited January 13, 2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Amalie:


[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited January 13, 2004).]

Yes Schubert's operas have survived - Alfonso und Estrella and particularly Fierabras contain very fine music. I suspect the 'Unfinished' is incomplete because it was around that time in 1822 when Schubert developed syphilis and he was quite incapacitated for some time. He probably lost interest in the work which he sent to his friend Anselm Huttenbrenner.

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'Man know thyself'