Beethoven and Schubert

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Yet why do I so often get the impression of a roughly made patchwork quilt of other composers styles when listening to Schubert? Though Beethoven too was influenced by others I suggest Beethoven at a similar age had a vastly superior grasp of all things musical.

In his early works he was searching for his own voice and maybe Beethoven did find it earlier (certainly he mastered form earlier as the sonatas of the 1790's reveal), but on the other hand the works by Schubert I mentioned reveal an incredible depth and maturity for a composer still in his 20's. Few works by Beethoven in his 20s have the same intensity and emotional maturity as the Ab mass, the unfinished symphony, the string quintet in c, slow movement of the great c major symphony, Winterreise or Schubert's last 3 piano sonatas and string quartets.

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited January 05, 2004).]

[Opus131]

Originally posted by Peter:
In his early works he was searching for his own voice and maybe Beethoven did find it earlier (certainly he mastered form earlier as the sonatas of the 1790's reveal), but on the other hand the works by Schubert I mentioned reveal an incredible depth and maturity for a composer still in his 20's. Few works by Beethoven in his 20s have the same intensity and emotional maturity as the Ab mass, the unfinished symphony, the string quintet in c, slow movement of the great c major symphony, Winterreise or Schubert's last 3 piano sonatas.

Frankly i don't see it, Schubert 'emotional maturity' sounds rather empty to me, and quite derivative...

[Peter]

Originally posted by Opus131:
Frankly i don't see it, Schubert 'emotional maturity' sounds rather empty to me, and quite derivative...

Well that's not my view - there is a marked shift in Schubert's style around 1822/3 with the onset of syphilis - he himself was aware that the very real suffering he went through was affecting his art, in fact it was the one positive aspect of his illness. There is a parallel with Beethoven here in that the crisis over his deafness produced a similar effect.

Remember that in 1822 we're still talking about an artist of 25 years age - at a similar age Beethoven hadn't produced a symphony, mass, opera or much chamber music of any note, nor did he until into his 30's.
I don't say that to anyway downgrade Beethoven, but to put Schubert into a better perspective.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
... Few works by Beethoven in his 20s have the same intensity and emotional maturity as the Ab mass, the unfinished symphony, the string quintet in c, slow movement of the great c major symphony, Winterreise or Schubert's last 3 piano sonatas and string quartets.

I can only disagree, there is more to maturity than at first meets the eye, or rather, ear. By coincidence I was listening to Schubert's last piano sonata on the radio over the holidays and I though this work proved my point as good as any, the work came over as a rather confused collection of ideas that weren't particularly interesting (at least to me) in any case.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I can only disagree, there is more to maturity than at first meets the eye, or rather, ear. By coincidence I was listening to Schubert's last piano sonata on the radio over the holidays and I though this work proved my point as good as any, the work came over as a rather confused collection of ideas that weren't particularly interesting (at least to me) in any case.

Schubert's last sonata proves my point - there is nothing confused about the Bb sonata which is profound and sublime!

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
Schubert's last sonata proves my point - there is nothing confused about the Bb sonata which is profound and sublime!

All this talk about Schubert you gave me a taste to listen to his song cycle 'Winterreise'! Just wonderful. I was reading where some consider the two song cycles 'Die schone Mullerin and Die Winterreise to be "the greatest single series of songs in the literature." Also reading about Die Leiermann, described as "sending icicles of despair through the listener." What a sad tale that is.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited January 05, 2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I can only disagree, there is more to maturity than at first meets the eye, or rather, ear. By coincidence I was listening to Schubert's last piano sonata on the radio over the holidays and I though this work proved my point as good as any, the work came over as a rather confused collection of ideas that weren't particularly interesting (at least to me) in any case.

Even from your point of view Rod, Schubert has two redeeming features : 1) his admiration for Beethoven and 2) His admiration for Handel which led him to acquire scores of the oratorios (uncannily like Beethoven a few months before his death!) with a view to studying them with Sechter - he only had one such lesson a few weeks before his death.

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'Man know thyself'

[Opus131]

Originally posted by Rod:
I can only disagree, there is more to maturity than at first meets the eye, or rather, ear. By coincidence I was listening to Schubert's last piano sonata on the radio over the holidays and I though this work proved my point as good as any, the work came over as a rather confused collection of ideas that weren't particularly interesting (at least to me) in any case.

Albiet i do like Schubert, i also share a similar problem. Adminedly, i'm not an expert on his music, but many of his compositions sound like a disjunted mess to me, hardly the work of 'maturity'.

He was a brilliant composer and an incredible melodist, but i think the latter quality is confounding people in beleiving is music to be more then what it is...

[urtextmeister]

I find it ironic that Schubert is being labeled disjointed. That is exactly how I would describe some of the late works of Beethoven. Take the finale of the 9th symphony, for instance. Some of the themes exit and enter with such abruptness that it takes your breath away. How can a composer reconcile such disparate elements? It is like making sense of a universe full of contradictions. Isn't that what Beethoven was all about?
Schubert, I believe, was also fascinated by contradiction, but he approached things in a different way. His own UNIQUE way. His world is more dominated by the lyrical theme, with the dark and drammatic lurking around the corner. The great Bb sonata that was previously referred to is an excellent example. There is the same coming together of violently contrasting elements, but a completely different way of resolving them.

[Rod]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
I find it ironic that Schubert is being labeled disjointed. That is exactly how I would describe some of the late works of Beethoven. Take the finale of the 9th symphony, for instance. Some of the themes exit and enter with such abruptness that it takes your breath away. How can a composer reconcile such disparate elements? It is like making sense of a universe full of contradictions. Isn't that what Beethoven was all about?
Schubert, I believe, was also fascinated by contradiction, but he approached things in a different way. His own UNIQUE way. His world is more dominated by the lyrical theme, with the dark and drammatic lurking around the corner. The great Bb sonata that was previously referred to is an excellent example. There is the same coming together of violently contrasting elements, but a completely different way of resolving them.

Schubert I believe is a failure in this dealing with contrasts, nothing is convincing.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
Schubert I believe is a failure in this dealing with contrasts, nothing is convincing.

In his piano music I find the contrasting ideas and dynamics to be among the more fascinating and desirable elements. As far as disjointed, everything I've played as well as listened to is very tightly organized--thematic development, transitions, etc. are well handled. Stylistically, I think Schubert had a similar problem to what early 20th Century composers had in that there were various styles in popularity at the time as well as big sweeping changes, both artistically as well as politcally that had heavy influence on the direction of music and all art.

[mrfixit]

I dunno i really like his 9th symphony and his sting quintet (His last one he composed i cant rember the number is D900 and something) You most likely listenend to his music more than me so i supose i shouldnt tell you to try listening again. Anyway it took me a few listend to get used to him. I noticed that Beethovens 5th piano concerto the first movemment sounds sort of like its composed in the same style of Schubert.

[Rod]

Originally posted by mrfixit:
I dunno i really like his 9th symphony and his sting quintet (His last one he composed i cant rember the number is D900 and something) You most likely listenend to his music more than me so i supose i shouldnt tell you to try listening again. Anyway it took me a few listend to get used to him. I noticed that Beethovens 5th piano concerto the first movemment sounds sort of like its composed in the same style of Schubert.

It is not so much the quality of the thematic material I am concerned with in any case, every composer has probably at least one good tune in him, it is the manner of Schubertian construction I have trouble with - and even the young Beethoven is as solid as Mount Everest in this respect whereas Schubert is very uncertain. It is knowing how to use your material that marks you as a true musical genius, for this it seems is the hardest task for the composer from what I have heard!

PS sorry for delay with next mp3s, this is due to technical difficulty beyond my control. Should be back to normal by next monday at latest.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Geratlas]

Originally posted by Rod:
It is not so much the quality of the thematic material I am concerned with in any case, every composer has probably at least one good tune in him, it is the manner of Schubertian construction I have trouble with - and even the young Beethoven is as solid as Mount Everest in this respect whereas Schubert is very uncertain. It is knowing how to use your material that marks you as a true musical genius, for this it seems is the hardest task for the composer from what I have heard!

Rod,
It seems to me you set high value in "solidity". Well I can't blame you, but even though Schubert's music in general is not quite as dense and concentrated as that of B', he got an astounding sense for unity in all his major works and an unapprochable sense for that effortless flow which to me legitimate those 'heavenly lenghts'. It's quite different to the thrusts typical of B. but just as significant.
(Could it be that you look upon Schubert's music by Beethoven standards, and thus only beethoven standards?)
What you say? I wish you well.
SENdING oVer tO yOu:::

[Rod]

Originally posted by Geratlas:

...(Could it be that you look upon Schubert's music by Beethoven standards, and thus only beethoven standards?)
What you say? I wish you well.
SENdING oVer tO yOu:::

I view all classical music by Beethoven's standard. That's why I think so much of it is rubbish! As I have said many times before, by this standard only Handel can be considered in the same league from what I have heard.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin