Missa Solemnis

[Steppenwolf]

I have read that Beethoven regarded the Missa Solemnis as his greatest work. It seems few would agree with him. This work is quite neglected, and rarely discussed. I thought it would be interesting to start a thread for a general discussion of this work. What are your views on it?

[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited December 30, 2003).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
I have read that Beethoven regarded the Missa Solemnis as his greatest work. It seems few would agree with him. This work is quite neglected, and rarely discussed. I thought it would be interesting to start a thread for a general discussion of this work. What are your views on it?

[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited December 30, 2003).]

I have stated here before that I have found no reason to contradict Beethoven's remark. I would say this Missa Solemnis is the greatest piece of music ever written.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Rod:
I have stated here before that I have found no reason to contradict Beethoven's remark. I would say this Missa Solemnis is the greatest piece of music ever written.

In what way does it surpass the 9th symphony? That would be the choice of most other Beethovians. And many others would choose the late quartets. How come not those?

By the way, what recording of this work would you recommend? I recently obtained a version conducted by John Eliot Gardiner.

I have recently been listening to the Kyrie and the Credo intently. The music is superb, although to me seems not so much the spontaneous outpouring of subliminal genius, but the carefully constructed edifice of a master craftsman. As sublime as many of the passages are, it does on the other hand sound very *deliberate*. Of course we know that Beethoven spent much time on each of his compositions meticulously drafting, then redrafting, and yet the end result of other works, such as the 9th, sound more like the spontaneous outpourings of divine inspiration, like the torrent of a river that has burst its banks. In my very humble opinion, to the detriment of the Missa Solemnis the effort expended in its construction (this seems a better word than 'composition) is apparent.

One aspect of the work that must be applauded in the manner in which voices are used. The human voice is used, in this piece, symphonically. The voices are used as if instruments - the meaning of the words is far behind the primary, unutterable musical meaning. In that way music - the highest of the arts - takes its rightful place, above the inferior medium of mere poetry. Too often in music is the reverse true, where music merely accompanies the words. When music is at its highest, the meaning of the words accompany the primary meaning of the music, not vice versa.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
In what way does it surpass the 9th symphony? That would be the choice of most other Beethovians. And many others would choose the late quartets. How come not those?

By the way, what recording of this work would you recommend? I recently obtained a version conducted by John Eliot Gardiner.

I have recently been listening to the Kyrie and the Credo intently. The music is superb, although to me seems not so much the spontaneous outpouring of subliminal genius, but the carefully constructed edifice of a master craftsman. As sublime as many of the passages are, it does on the other hand sound very *deliberate*. Of course we know that Beethoven spent much time on each of his compositions meticulously drafting, then redrafting, and yet the end result of other works, such as the 9th, sound more like the spontaneous outpourings of divine inspiration, like the torrent of a river that has burst its banks. In my very humble opinion, to the detriment of the Missa Solemnis the effort expended in its construction (this seems a better word than 'composition) is apparent.

One aspect of the work that must be applauded in the manner in which voices are used. The human voice is used, in this piece, symphonically. The voices are used as if instruments - the meaning of the words is far behind the primary, unutterable musical meaning. In that way music - the highest of the arts - takes its rightful place, above the inferior medium of mere poetry. Too often in music is the reverse true, where music merely accompanies the words. When music is at its highest, the meaning of the words accompany the primary meaning of the music, not vice versa.

Putting it very crudely, the Missa is the most extreme example of Beethoven's effort, and it is through effort that Beethoven achieved such unsurpassed genius. It is not nessessarily superior musically to some of the others, I tend not to judge his music in this manner as it is all magnificent, but it is the high level of Beethoven's application even by his own standards that marks the piece as his supreme work of art. Not a clear explanation I accept.

I posess Gardiner's version and can recommend it. But the version I play the most is by the Hanover Band also on period instruments. It is this version you will hear if I live long enough to reach this work on the mp3 page!

There is no lack of quality in any respect with regard to the Kyrie and the Credo. I will be playing the Kyrie as the mp3 for this piece and then I will look forward to your assessment. The Kirie requires a sincere and loving kind of warmth to have its radiant effect. The Credo requires a pace and dynamism that you rarely hear in performance, but you get it in the recordings I mention here.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 31, 2003).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
In what way does it surpass the 9th symphony? That would be the choice of most other Beethovians. And many others would choose the late quartets. How come not those?

By the way, what recording of this work would you recommend? I recently obtained a version conducted by John Eliot Gardiner.

Be mindful that this work represents Beethoven's innermost spirituality. To represent such thoughts and emotions can only be done through the human voice. While the 9th Symphony is a most wonderful work the mass goes much deeper into the human emotional and spiritual experience--check out the Agnus Dei--I think you'll get an idea of what I refer to.

While the Gardiner is not a bad performance I found it to be a bit flat in comparison with the Leonard Bernstein performance. But then I heard the Bernstein first and sometimes first impressions are so strong they will not go away.

[bernardc]

I'm sure if Beethoven were alive today his greatest disappointment would be the fact that his grand mass has failed to go from "his heart to the heart of classical music fans".

Even among his own fans its reception is uncertain...though I hasten to add it DOES go straight to my heart and always has. Indeed I see it as a kind of litmus test as to how deeply a person empathises with the composer and his spiritual outlook. You can argue about its purely musical merits but the ESSENCE of the composer is unquestionably there, particularly in the Gloria and Credo.

Yet how often is the Mass in D performed?? I'm going to hear Handel's Messiah later on today in Glasgow, a work that is performed every year on Jan 2nd such is the affection the public have for it.

If only a similar fate had befallen the Missa...but perhaps its relative obscurity makes it all the more special for its devotees!

[Amalie]

The Messiah is not really a programmatic piece of music. And I think its popularity can be accounted for in todays secular age because what it does is to take some well known passages from bible and sets them to music. It doesn't really imply any belief on the part of the listener, though this would of course horrify Handel in today's terms, it really requires more a sympathy with with the sacred theme that is being played out in musical terms. It is a loose structure and very well suited to the age in which we live, it does also of course have great music in it.
In historical terms it is very protestant in that it is not really creed based.
Beethoven's Missa is a totally different issue. There we have the full blown weight of Catholocism expressed in the great propositions of the creed, and it is this which forms the intellectual and thematic basis for the music.
Non-Catholics and non-Christians I suspect today, are very uncomfortable with this, and that accounts for the Messiah's enduring superiority in the musical cannon over B's Missa Solemnis.
There are many view points of course, about how Catholic Beethoven was, and one writer in an excellent study refered to the fact that it was not so much Beethoven's belief that was to the fore here, more his emotional and musical reaction to what he took the creeds to be.
But the fact remains I suppose, that whether it is a question of straight forward belief on Beethoven's part in the latin propositions of the creed, or, Beethoven's musical interpretation or reaction, the point is that he used the creed itself as a point of departure and common reference point with his listners and so by definition to non-catholics and non-christians, it is going to have that much less resonance because of it.
The Missa Solemnis of course contains glorious music and is a tremendous musical masterpiece.
Clearly however, it is not going to take over the Messiah in today's modern age which prefers vagueness and informality, by its very definition the Missa is a statement of hard belief and therefore less acceptable in today's free floating secular age.
I guess people like the Messiah who are not particularly church going or religious, because they take it as a piece of wonderful music in its own right. Whereas, with the Missa they are more unreceptive to the creed based philosophy which underlies it, and which they find hard to extracate from the music.
Also don't forget Beethoven was a cradle Catholic and he was brought up with the Catholic creed in cultural terms alone he would have found it difficult to distance himself from it whatever the precise nature of his religious beliefs were.
Handel was of course a great sincere Christian like Bach, but both were brought up in the very Ant-ritualist and loose organization of the Lutherin Church, which was a long, long way from the smells and bells of Rome.



[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited January 02, 2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Amalie:



The Messiah is not really a programmatic piece of music. And I think its popularity can be accounted for in todays secular age because what it does is to take some well known passages from bible and sets them to music. It doesn't really imply any belief on the part of the listener, though this would of course horrify Handel in today's terms, it really requires more a sympathy with with the sacred theme that is being played out in musical terms. It is a loose structure and very well suited to the age in which we live, it does also of course have great music in it.
In historical terms it is very protestant in that it is not really creed based.
Beethoven's Missa is a totally different issue. There we have the full blown weight of Catholocism expressed in the great propositions of the creed, and it is this which forms the intellectual and thematic basis for the music.
Non-Catholics and non-Christians I suspect today, are very uncomfortable with this, and that accounts for the Messiah's enduring superiority in the musical cannon over B's Missa Solemnis.
There are many view points of course, about how Catholic how Beethoven was, and one writer in an excellent study refered to the fact that it was not so much Beethoven's belief that was to the fore here, more his emotional and musical reaction to what he took the creeds to be.
But the fact remains I suppose, that whether it is a question of straight forward belief on Beethoven's part in the latin propositions of the creed, or, Beethoven's musical interpretation or reaction, the point is that he used the creed itself as a point of departure and common reference point with his listners and so by definition to non-catholics and non-christians, it is going to have that much less resonance because of it.
The Missa of course contains glorious music and is a tremedous musical masterpiece.
I clearly however, it is not going to take over the Messiah in today's modern age which prefers vagueness and informality overy definition and hard belief.
I guess people like the Messiah who are not particularly church going or religious, because they take it as a piece of wonderful music in its own right. Whereas, with the Missa they are more unreceptive to the creed based philosophy which underlies it, and which they find hard to extracate from the music.
Also don't forget Beethoven was a cradle Catholic and he was brought up with the Catholic creed in cultural terms alone he would have found it difficult to distance himself from it whatever the precise nature of his religious beliefs were.
Handel was of course a great sincere Christian like Bach, but both were brought up in the very Ant-ritualist and loose organization of the Lutherin Church, which was a long, long way from the smells and bells of Rome.

I don't think non-Catholics and non-Christians are uncomfortable with Beethoven's Missa for the reasons you suggest, certainly it causes me no problem, the music transcends those issues. Could it not be a much more simple explanation in that Messiah is in English not Latin? I'm not sure how popular Messiah is in non-English speaking countries. On a purely musical level I think Messiah has a far more direct appeal owing to the operatic style of vocal writing that is absent in the Missa.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited January 02, 2004).]

[Chris]

Originally posted by Peter:
Could it not be a much more simple explanation in that Messiah is in English not Latin

And the fact that it is in Latin makes me think that probably not too many people are bothered by the words - it's hard to be bothered by what you don't understand. Yes, you can look at a translation, but I don't think the effect is the same.

Like we were talking about in the opera thread, it is easy to enjoy music without understanding the words.

[Amalie]

All music transcends, that is its definition.
Music is a non-semiotic form of representation. The fact remains Beethoven chose to set the music to an age old latin text or creed, and that must always be I think, the starting point in any analysis of this great work.
It is either a tautoligy or meaningless to say that music transcends a given text. Of course it does, that is why it is called music.
The interesting analysis from various commentators is how Beethoven saught for a musical equivalent to the Latin propositions of the text, or at the very least, how he reacted to them, emotionally and intelectually.
A really fascinating point is Why Beethoven did not get the Latin text translated into German and then he went to great lengths because his Latin was not perfect to find an exremely accurate
German translation of the Latin Creed.
Not only does this suggest that Beethoven was not a German patriot like Luther in terms of religion, but, that the words of the text had an exremely profound meaning for Beethoven and he took extreme care to actually find out what the words meant both semantically and liturgically.
We should acknowledge and respect Beethoven's pious intentions, whatever our own take is on the beliefs therein!




[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited January 02, 2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I don't think non-Catholics and non-Christians are uncomfortable with Beethoven's Missa for the reasons you suggest, certainly it causes me no problem, the music transcends those issues. Could it not be a much more simple explanation in that Messiah is in English not Latin? I'm not sure how popular Messiah is in non-English speaking countries.

Well Messiah is not church music in any case despite its subject matter, and is performed around the world in various languages. It is popular because every of its many numbers is a 'hit' musically, and his treatment of the text comes across as truely sincere despite the fact that most performances of it are dire. Neither I would say is Beethoven's Mass true church music as he presents it. It is always performed in the concert hall, with good reason because as you say it clearly transcends the formal doctrines of churchly procedure.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 02, 2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

Be mindful that this work represents Beethoven's innermost spirituality. To represent such thoughts and emotions can only be done through the human voice. While the 9th Symphony is a most wonderful work the mass goes much deeper into the human emotional and spiritual experience--check out the Agnus Dei--I think you'll get an idea of what I refer to.

While the Gardiner is not a bad performance I found it to be a bit flat in comparison with the Leonard Bernstein performance. But then I heard the Bernstein first and sometimes first impressions are so strong they will not go away.

I had a Bernstein recording (DG) of the Missa, a live performance but in no way would I prefer it over Gardiner's. I accept the Kyrie in Gardiner's is rather flat but the remainder is fantastic. As I said it is the Hanover Band's version I play the most in any case. I would say Bernstein's effort was typically laboured overall and the singing far from good. And you simply cannot beat period instruments for this kind of music especially.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 02, 2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Amalie:
All music transcends, that is its definition.
Music is a non-semiotic form of representation. The fact remains Beethoven chose to set the music to an age old latin text or creed, and that must always be I think, the starting point in any analysis of this great work.
It is either a tautoligy or meaningless to say that music transcends a given text. Of course it does, that is why it is called music.
The interesting analysis from various commentators is how Beethoven saught for a musical equivalent to the Latin propositions of the text, or at the very least, how he reacted to them, emotionally and intelectually.
A really fascinating point is Why Beethoven did not get the Latin text translated into German and then he went to great lengths because his Latin was not perfect to find an exremely accurate
German translation of the Latin Creed.
Not only does this suggest that Beethoven was not a German patriot like Luther in terms of religion, but, that the words of the text had an exremely profound meaning for Beethoven and he took extreme care to actually find out what the words meant both semantically and liturgically.
We should acknowledge and respect Beethoven's pious intentions, whatever our own take is on the beliefs therein!


[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited January 02, 2004).]

Well parts of Beethoven's Mass in C were performed in German at one of his concerts at least, calling the extracts '3 Hymns'. Beethoven was not satisfied with the rather reserved reception of his Mass on the 13th September 1807. Wishing to play the piece in concert, out of worship, the words were adapted into German by Christian Schreiber, and retained the three parts, renamed the Three Hymns: Gloria, Sanctus and Benedictus. I have seen a recording of the piece in this German arrangement:
http://classical.onino.co.uk/classic...mns_op_86.html


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 02, 2004).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
I had a Bernstein recording (DG) of the Missa, a live performance but in no way would I prefer it over Gardiner's. I accept the Kyrie in Gardiner's is rather flat but the remainder is fantastic. As I said it is the Hanover Band's version I play the most in any case. I would say Bernstein's effort was typically laboured overall and the singing far from good. And you simply cannot beat period instruments for this kind of music especially.

If anything, the Agnus Dei of the Bernstein performance moved me in ways that no other interpreter has done. Whether or not the vocal/choral qualitiy of the performers are up to par with either the Gardiner or Hanover versions are not relevant to me. The primary impact of the Bernstein in the mentioned section was sufficient to leave me with a lasting impression. This is why the Gardiner bothered me; it was lacking in that critical area. I did, however, enjoy the Gardiner recording (but I prefer the first mass with Gardiner than the second), but I still like the Bernstein better.

[Sorrano]

Perhaps an important point in this discussion is that the Missa Solemnis could never have been used as part of Church service on account of the symphonic treatment of the work. I think the first mass would have easier access as a strictly religous work. The second mass is more than just a spiritual expression of Beethoven's beliefs. It is an exercise in symphonic development of the liturgical text. Bruckner, later, modelled his own masses after this one.