ANONIM

[Pastorali]

What's to say about Minona von Stackelberg? Was she the daughter of Beethoven? Is that story really true?

[Peter]

This is of course related to the Immortal beloved issue - check out this page on the site for my views on this. www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/immortal.html

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'Man know thyself'

[Pastorali]

Hhmm yes, but...
Therese Brunswick wrote into her diary book: "Strangely the child had developed. Without being beautiful, she was strong and impressed so to its older sisters that we always called her the Gouvernante. It was shown also later that she had most genius among the sisters."

Later, she lived at her grandfather, were she studied Musik. She was concerned with the piano play and composition. Several works of her shall be published.

From the year 1870 it is reported that she contacted distant relatives from the family of her mother and asked for hiring of the correspondence of her mother with Beethoven. But at that time they were lost and were then found some years ago. These letters shall be published then. What is the content of these letters?

Even in poor financial circumstances she never lost her pride . "That I am guilty of my origin" she used to say.

(Source: Chris Stadtlaender)

One can assume that she was his daughter and the really last Beethoven indeed. What's about her music? Is something known about these compositions in our time? I would like to listen to, if possible!

[spaceray]

Beethoven had no children.

[Pastorali]

I don't know! – paper takes everything... but what makes you that sure, he had not?

[This message has been edited by Pastorali (edited February 03, 2004).]

[spaceray]

I know that Beethoven had no children because Rod Corkin told me so. That's good enough for me.

[Rod]

Originally posted by spaceray:
I know that Beethoven had no children because Rod Corkin told me so. That's good enough for me.

You'd think Beethoven had fathered half of Vienna if you believed every story like this. I say Beethoven had none of these children on the grounds that he would have known it or at least have been suspicious if he had, and, given his behavior towards his nephew Karl, Beethoven would have reacted to the situation to the extent that we would be aware of it for sure today without question. Even on his deathbed he says nothing or makes no requests concerning his alleged collection of offspring!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited November 27, 2003).]

[Pastorali]

Thanks Rod for your answer, very interesting.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Pastorali:
In this case the book written by Chris Stadtlaender is a whole fake. I don't know! – paper takes everything... but what makes you that sure, he had not?

If the book concerns itself solely with this matter, i presume he has more evidence (or rather 'evidence') than you have so far presented us with? Not that I am changing my position in any way.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited November 27, 2003).]

[Pastorali]

Originally posted by Rod:
If the book concerns itself solely with this matter, i presume he has more evidence (or rather 'evidence') than you have so far presented us with? Not that I am changing my position in any way.

The book calls translated something like „...all the time homeless and in love – Beethoven and the women“ (2001). The writer, Chris Stadtlaender is also a woman. The content of the book is about Beethoven’s privat life and the women in his environment. Of course the „immortal beloved“ is the main point of the book. But there are no evidences, it’s more to make a story arround the facts – and the rest is pure speculation. Somebody, who’s knowing not a lot about, would mean that the story really happened like this. For myself, I wondered how she takes the story to say it’s real and I wished to know what members here have to say about this speculation.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Pastorali:
The book calls translated something like „...all the time homeless and in love – Beethoven and the women“ (2001). The writer, Chris Stadtlaender is also a woman. The content of the book is about Beethoven’s privat life and the women in his environment. Of course the „immortal beloved“ is the main point of the book. But there are no evidences, it’s more to make a story arround the facts – and the rest is pure speculation. Somebody, who’s knowing not a lot about, would mean that the story really happened like this. For myself, I wondered how she takes the story to say it’s real and I wished to know what members here have to say about this speculation.

Does she mention who she thinks is the immortal beloved, Pastorali? There have been many speculations. I agree with you that for those who don't know a lot about this might take this book (or any other) for the truth. That' what's so dangerous about writing things like this without proof.
That was one of the big faults with the Immortal Beloved movie. For the people who didn't know the actual history they probably took that whole movie for being factual.
That's why I like to recommend finding out as much as possible before going to see a 'biography' so you can pick out some of the untruths from the facts.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Pastorali]

Originally posted by Joy:
Does she mention who she thinks is the immortal beloved, Pastorali? There have been many speculations. I agree with you that for those who don't know a lot about this might take this book (or any other) for the truth. That' what's so dangerous about writing things like this without proof.
That was one of the big faults with the Immortal Beloved movie. For the people who didn't know the actual history they probably took that whole movie for being factual.
That's why I like to recommend finding out as much as possible before going to see a 'biography' so you can pick out some of the untruths from the facts.

Yes, that's true. She says Josephine is the "immortal beloved".

[Cool]

I don't think Beethoven is such kind of person .So Idon'belive he had achild

[Pastorali]

Originally posted by Rod:
If the book concerns itself solely with this matter, i presume he has more evidence (or rather 'evidence') than you have so far presented us with? Not that I am changing my position in any way.

Not that I like to bore you with this topic, but I still have questions about it. I give you the translation of the main point, relating to the "Immortal Beloved". The text within this book goes like this:

"It can be considered as proven, that two humans, wich where since 13 years in love, found together for two happy days... These two humans where LvB and Josephine von Stackelberg. These two happy days where the 3th and 4th of July of the year 1812! Then the ways separated again: Beethoven traveled to Teplitz in Böhmen, looking for healing of deaf. And Josephine went to Vienna, to Therese and the six children "

So far this is the text. It's not the way, I do stand behind this meaning, though it makes me wondering...

Why can the author say "it's proven"? Is it really? What is known about these two days? In the book is nothing to find, why it shall be "proven". Is this just gossip?
Was Beethoven at this time not in Heiligenstadt?
What is known about the time of 1808–1812? Was the contact between them totaly off, or just not that closed as in the years before?

Or is it maybe impossible to find out more about in the current days, wich is really "considered as proven"?

[This message has been edited by Pastorali (edited January 02, 2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Pastorali:
Not that I like to bore you with this topic, but I still have questions about it. I give you the translation of the main point, relating to the "Immortal Beloved". The text within this book goes like this:

"It can be considered as proven, that two humans, wich where since 13 years in love, found together for two happy days... These two humans where LvB and Josephine von Stackelberg. These two happy days where the 3th and 4th of July of the year 1812! Then the ways separated again: Beethoven traveled to Teplitz in Böhmen, looking for healing of deaf. And Josephine went to Vienna, to Therese and the six children "

So far this is the text. It's not the way, I do stand behind this meaning, though it makes me wondering...

Why can the author say "it's proven"? Is it really? What is known about these two days? In the book is nothing to find, why it shall be "proven". Is this just gossip?
Was Beethoven at this time not in Heiligenstadt?
What is known about the time of 1808–1812? Was the contact between them totaly off, or just not that closed as in the years before?

Or is it maybe impossible to find out more about in the current days, wich is really "considered as proven"?

[This message has been edited by Pastorali (edited January 02, 2004).]

Beethoven was in Prague from 1st - 4th July 1812 - I'm not aware that Josephine's presence in either Prague or Karlsbad has been proven.

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'Man know thyself'