Liszt`s piano transcriptions

[Mako]

PDG,

Why the stress about editing? I know of no recording (including live performances) in the past 50 or so years that hasn't been edited. The technology is there, why not use it? Schnabel's recordings contain .."handfuls of wrong notes.." as mentioned on another post on this site (re:-gest performances of B's 32 Sonatas) because in his day, recordings were done onto wire. In the 1950's they went to wax, and then in the late '50's onto tape. Before tape, you could not hear the recording until it had been pressed onto vinyl. They had to simply remember and guess which performance was the best to be produced for release. Often the first time an artist would hear the recording was when it was played on the radio.
Before the age of digital editing came in, analogue (i.e. tape) recordings were edited with a razor blade and sticky tape (in fact we still do it today!) It's not cheating, just a fact of life!

[This message has been edited by Mako (edited 01-18-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Mako (edited 01-18-2001).]

[PDG]

Originally posted by Mako:
PDG,
Why the stress about editing? I know of no recording (including live performances) in the past 50 or so years that hasn't been edited. The technology is there, why not use it? Schnabel's recordings contain .."handfuls of wrong notes.." as mentioned on another post on this site (re:-gest performances of B's 32 Sonatas) because in his day, recordings were done onto wire. In the 1950's they went to wax, and then in the late '50's onto tape. Before tape, you could not hear the recording until it had been pressed onto vinyl. They had to simply remember and guess which performance was the best to be produced for release. Often the first time an artist would hear the recording was when it was played on the radio.
Before the age of digital editing came in, analogue (i.e. tape) recordings were edited with a razor blade and sticky tape (in fact we still do it today!) It's not cheating, just a fact of life!
[This message has been edited by Mako (edited 01-18-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Mako (edited 01-18-2001).]

Mako,

I do not accept that all piano recordings in the last 50 years have been edited!! Maybe you thought I was referring to pauses in between movements(?), but I was referring to the actual movements themselves. I have a keen ear for studio juxtaposition - great word, I`ll say it again - juxtaposition, & the only time I`ve heard it is in Liszt`s transcriptions. If you think about it, this cheating, for that is what it is, is almost impossible to get away with on piano recordings anyway, due to flurries of notes, tempo & sustain - any join in the recording would be obvious.

Aside from all of this, virtually any concert-giving pianist, worthy of the name, is more than capable of delivering any of Beethoven`s sonatas, note perfect; it may only be in tempo, mis-pedalling or feeling where they let themselves down, yet it is only in note-accuracy where editing would serve any purpose.

PS. Our man Henman to beat your man Rafter in Round 4. Waddya say to that??!!

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
it may only be in tempo, mis-pedalling or feeling where they let themselves down, yet it is only in note-accuracy where editing would serve any purpose.

)

I disagree - a note perfect phrase can always be reshaped, a little more rubato, slightly more accent, different balance of sound, greater crescendo etc....... I'm sure this is what the main purpose of editing is anyway , not to correct wrong notes, which must be quite uncommon these days.

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'Man know thyself'

[Mako]

PDG,

Can't have a very keen ear if that's the only example you've picked up Peter is right, editing isn't there to just correct wrong notes, but it is a main tool for achieving the "perfect performance" in this day of so called 'experts' claiming to be better than anyone else out there ( even without being forced to prove it in performance themselves!) and criticising every note they hear. You would be very surprised to see just how good the digital editing can be in the right hands, and stunned to see how much editing really goes on behind closed doors.

Oops almost forgot!! Live performers have the advantage that once the moments is passed, it's gone forever. In a studio recording, they are under a microscope and everything can be magnified a thousand times and replayed over and over and over again. Even live recordings can be doctored into the amazing performance the artist wanted it to be.

And on the Henman Vs. Rafter clash? May the best man win and send the other packing his bags for the long haul back to England! :P

[This message has been edited by Mako (edited 01-19-2001).]

[PDG]

Peter & Mako,
Either I`m incredibly naive, or you are both losing it big time!
If one takes those 10 astounding G major chords whioh lead to the A flat fugue of op. 110 as an example, one can clearly hear that, in no recording which I`ve heard anyway, no editing has taken place, for no pianist plays it quite right(!). And if they ever did, then I would surely have my suspicions aroused. This is because music ain`t an exact science!
The best recordings of Beethoven`s sonatas are those done in one "take" by those prepared to let the honesty of their craft show (eg. Bernard Roberts) before any manufactured, studio incarnations rear their ugly heads.

Edited bit:

Mako, nothing which goes on in a recording studio would either surprise or stun me; I spend half my life in recording studios. Give me an honest "record me in one" performer above an egocentric "I must appear perfect" artist, any day of the week.

[This message has been edited by PDG (edited 01-19-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
Peter & Mako,
Either I`m incredibly naive, or you are both losing it big time!
If one takes those 10 astounding G major chords whioh lead to the A flat fugue of op. 110 as an example, one can clearly hear that, in no recording which I`ve heard anyway, no editing has taken place, for no pianist plays it quite right(!). And if they ever did, then I would surely have my suspicions aroused. This is because music ain`t an exact science!
The best recordings of Beethoven`s sonatas are those done in one "take" by those prepared to let the honesty of their craft show (eg. Bernard Roberts) before any manufactured, studio incarnations rear their ugly heads.

The chords you mention can never be played effectively on a modern piano, hence the difficulty performers have in playing them. But I agree with your point about Roberts. A greater problem for me is no so much the editing but the variable recording levels or accoustics used for different movements of a single work. In some recordings I have this is quite marked and I have to continually adjust the volume to compensate.

Rod


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[chrisg]

The best recordings of Beethoven`s sonatas are those done in one "take" by those prepared to let the honesty of their craft show (eg. Bernard Roberts) before any manufactured, studio incarnations rear their ugly heads.

PDG,

I agree with the first half of your statement, but think you can do a lot better than Roberts. I find his entire set definitively "safe", never bad but never special. For endlessly imaginative, spontaneous, on the edge, fearless Beethoven, try Sviatoslav Richter. Most of his recordings are live, and his studio versions feel live. You can take the fingers for granted, but what impresses me most about his playing is that he creates a feeling of interpreting on the fly. He can make a piano sing, and takes every risk in the book.

Chris

[PDG]

Originally posted by chrisg:
The best recordings of Beethoven`s sonatas are those done in one "take" by those prepared to let the honesty of their craft show (eg. Bernard Roberts) before any manufactured, studio incarnations rear their ugly heads.
PDG,
I agree with the first half of your statement, but think you can do a lot better than Roberts. I find his entire set definitively "safe", never bad but never special. For endlessly imaginative, spontaneous, on the edge, fearless Beethoven, try Sviatoslav Richter. Most of his recordings are live, and his studio versions feel live. You can take the fingers for granted, but what impresses me most about his playing is that he creates a feeling of interpreting on the fly. He can make a piano sing, and takes every risk in the book.
Chris

Chris, I agree that Richter was special. My nodding the wink at Bernard Roberts is based on my admiring the "honesty" of his playing of the Beethoven sonatas. Honesty, in music, is not easy to pigeonhole, but I`m always happy to use Roberts as an example of my interpretation of that word. I don`t like fussy playing, or over-interpretiveness, when it`s not needed.

Since it was our earlier thread exchange which lead me to talking about studio editing, perhaps I could try & clarify what I meant. If I again use the 10 chord G major passage prior to the A flat fugue of op.110 as an example, each successive chord is supposed to increase in intensity & weight. Let`s say that a pianist has made a recording of the sonata with which he is satisfied, except that these chords don`t quite convey their intended drama. It is possible for him to re-record the end of the work, starting from the G major passage, & for his two attempts to be spliced together. To my ears, when this is done, the join is always obvious. I am not talking about tweaking eq or reverb here & there - I am referring to two or more attempts being made at producing one piece of music. And this practice should be outlawed, by golly!!

[Mako]

Originally posted by PDG:
Let`s say that a pianist has made a recording of the sonata with which he is satisfied, except that these chords don`t quite convey their intended drama. It is possible for him to re-record the end of the work, starting from the G major passage, & for his two attempts to be spliced together. To my ears, when this is done, the join is always obvious. I am not talking about tweaking eq or reverb here & there - I am referring to two or more attempts being made at producing one piece of music. And this practice should be outlawed, by golly!![/B]

PDG,

You are seriously having yourself on if you think you can pick out every edit in a piece of music. Granted there are unfortunately some bad ones out there, but I think you are being one of these score following, nit picking 'authorities' who couldn't really enjoy a recording if they tried, only finding satisfaction when thinking he has found a blemish of one type or other. You are exactly the type of person who I mentioned in my earlier post. Chill out, get off your high horse, and unless you can produce something better, leave them alone.

By the way, your Henman is going home tomorrow, what do you think about that!

[PDG]

Originally posted by Mako:
PDG,
You are seriously having yourself on if you think you can pick out every edit in a piece of music. Granted there are unfortunately some bad ones out there, but I think you are being one of these score following, nit picking 'authorities' who couldn't really enjoy a recording if they tried, only finding satisfaction when thinking he has found a blemish of one type or other. You are exactly the type of person who I mentioned in my earlier post. Chill out, get off your high horse, and unless you can produce something better, leave them alone.
By the way, your Henman is going home tomorrow, what do you think about that!

Sir, you offend me. I don`t know how old you are (I`d guess very young), & maybe you`re just trying to make an impression with this newly-discovered site of yours, but I am not a "nit-picker" (note the hyphen); neither do I enjoy "flawed" music, nor feel the need to either "chill out" or get off my non-existent "high horse". Please make no assumptions of me, & I`ll make none of you, okay? In other words, check your views before you post them; we`ll get along just fine as long as it doesn`t get personal.

[chrisg]

PDG,

We seem to have taken a wrong turn here. Getting back on topic, the example you give of "honesty" in Roberts' Beethoven playing is the kind of thing that just wouldn't register with me. If I could read a score, and actually play the piano, I might feel otherwise. As it is, you're listening on a different level, but I do wonder if your admiration for the way he sticks to the scores with minimal studio editing translates to full enjoyment. When you really want to just kick back and listen to a Beethoven sonata for your own pleasure, whose do you reach for?

cg

[Rod]

Originally posted by chrisg:
PDG,

We seem to have taken a wrong turn here. Getting back on topic, the example you give of "honesty" in Roberts' Beethoven playing is the kind of thing that just wouldn't register with me. If I could read a score, and actually play the piano, I might feel otherwise. As it is, you're listening on a different level, but I do wonder if your admiration for the way he sticks to the scores with minimal studio editing translates to full enjoyment. When you really want to just kick back and listen to a Beethoven sonata for your own pleasure, whose do you reach for?

cg

With Roberts it is the absence of any personal idiosyncrasies (ie excentricities in interpretation) that is refreshing, his 'Appassionata' on Nimbus is as good as anyones on the pf. Whereas with Richter I've have got on occasion the impression he was trying to 'show-off' at the expence of the music, just my impression though. Frankly I don't care who is playing as long as they get it right - for me they wouldn't even have to put the players name on the disk. You will never have heard of most of the fp players in my collection!

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
With Roberts it is the absence of any personal idiosyncrasies (ie excentricities in interpretation) that is refreshing, his 'Appassionata' on Nimbus is as good as anyones on the pf. Whereas with Richter I've have got on occasion the impression he was trying to 'show-off' at the expence of the music, just my impression though. Frankly I don't care who is playing as long as they get it right - for me they wouldn't even have to put the players name on the disk. You will never have heard of most of the fp players in my collection!
Rod

Rod,

You have, effectively, answered Chris for me. I agree with you, 100%.

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
Rod,

You have, effectively, answered Chris for me. I agree with you, 100%.

I find myself in an unusual situation! At one time or another I have had all of Roberts Beethoven music on Nimbus. Some person lucky enough to know me in person now posseses my complete B sonatas by him, but I have kept his Diabelli Variations and op126 as they are as much to my taste as you can get on the pf.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin