Liszt`s piano transcriptions

[PDG]

I`d like to know what other people think of Liszt`s transcriptions of Beethoven`s symphonies. Has anyone attended such a performance? What did you think?

I only have no.s 2,5,6,7 & 8 on CD at present, but they all sound terribly difficult - esp. no. 5. I approached these `curiosities` with scepticism, but, I am not embarrassed to say, they completely blew me away. They are awesome. We know that Liszt idolized Beethoven, and it is obvious from the painstaking effort involved, that for the former, this was a real labour of love.

Why did Beethoven never contemplate transcribing the symphonies himself? Or did he? I know that there were simplified, play-at-home versions available, but with his keen, profit-directed mind, this bread and butter work would surely have swelled the coffers - these works would have thrilled audiences. Forgive my flight of fancy here, but allowing for Beethoven`s wicked sense of humour, I can well imagine him taunting his illustrious contemporaries, in the developing age of the pianoforte, along the lines of: `Until quite recently, I was able to play these works perfectly well, of course; but alas, my hearing is not QUITE what it was, so I leave it to you to show them off, and enhance your own reputations!!`

Did Liszt, while paying due respect to the master, have one eye on his own fame? Are there idiosyncracies in the scores which guaranteed that ONLY he, the greatest pianist in history, would ever be able to play them properly? I ask this because I know of no recordings of these piano versions which were completed without the help of studio trickery (even Glenn Gould needed help).

What is the historical value of Liszt`s efforts? Should he have left well alone, as, for all I know, Beethoven consciously did? Personally, I am very pleased that Liszt went to the trouble - I think that Beethoven would have been flattered.

[Serge]

One of the great regrets of my life to date is that I have not heard any of the Beethoven nine as transcibed by Liszt. Not one. I have heard amazing things about the piano versions and I intend to get a CD with any of them ASAP.

So, having not heard them, I can offer no insight into Liszt's interpretation. I can, though, say that Liszt was a virtuoso first and composer second. He made a fantastic living as a showman pianist (apparently so good as to have women faint at his performances), but a showman pianist needs showman works to play. I'm quite certain his transcriptions, if they are as complex as everyone says, were half meant as laudation of Ludwig and half as proof to the world that Liszt was the preeminent pianist of his generation (or century or millennium). The works I have heard of Liszt are all dizzyingly flashy-- enjoyable, but of relatively little substance, as far as I see.

I have heard heaps of praise for the Ludwig nine on piano, so I'll give them a shot with eager ears.


p.s. have any of you heard Wagner's transcription of Ludwig's ninth? It's quite good; I esp. enjoy the way the chords are written in the thematic material of the 4th mov't.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Serge:
One of the great regrets of my life to date is that I have not heard any of the Beethoven nine as transcibed by Liszt. Not one. I have heard amazing things about the piano versions and I intend to get a CD with any of them ASAP.

p.s. have any of you heard Wagner's transcription of Ludwig's ninth? It's quite good; I esp. enjoy the way the chords are written in the thematic material of the 4th mov't.

I suggest the principle merit of L's transcriptions is that they give us some idea of the impression they gave at a time when they were still relatively 'new'. Other than that I cannot think of any other usefull purpose they serve today.

Wagner's effort is in my opinion not worthy of discussion.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:


Did Liszt, while paying due respect to the master, have one eye on his own fame? Are there idiosyncracies in the scores which guaranteed that ONLY he, the greatest pianist in history, would ever be able to play them properly?
What is the historical value of Liszt`s efforts? Should he have left well alone, as, for all I know, Beethoven consciously did? Personally, I am very pleased that Liszt went to the trouble - I think that Beethoven would have been flattered.

I don't think Liszt can be accused of writing them merely to enhance his own fame, which by this time (1840)was already widely established - They were not really suitable material for this purpose and I am not aware of them appearing in Liszt's recitals, certainly not on a frequent basis such as his transcriptions of the William Tell overture or the Galop Chromatique.
His transcriptions of the B symphonies are on an altogether higher plane than his opera transcriptions and I think they deserve to be more widely known .
Possibly Beethoven didn't transcribe them because he felt the Fortepiano couldn't match the power of the orchestra - No problem with a modern pianoforte though !

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

Possibly Beethoven didn't transcribe them because he felt the Fortepiano couldn't match the power of the orchestra - No problem with a modern pianoforte though !

I suggest it more likely that B did not have the inclination (ie the media change was too unsuitable, regardless of the nature of the fp), and/or the financial motivation (which may have been irrelevant anyway in this case).

Rod


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I suggest it more likely that B did not have the inclination (ie the media change was too unsuitable, regardless of the nature of the fp), and/or the financial motivation (which may have been irrelevant anyway in this case).

I knew you'd respond to the bait Rod ! - Seriously though, I don't think the Symphonies would achieve the same power on the Fortepiano, nor do I think the media change is unsuitable - Most Orchestral works of the 19th century can very well be transcribed for piano, especially if done as superbly as Liszt's arrangement - the only problem is finding an artist capable of playing them! Some composers actually sketched their works for piano duet and orchestrated them later.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I knew you'd respond to the bait Rod ! - Seriously though, I don't think the Symphonies would achieve the same power on the Fortepiano, nor do I think the media change is unsuitable - Most Orchestral works of the 19th century can very well be transcribed for piano, especially if done as superbly as Liszt's arrangement - the only problem is finding an artist capable of playing them! Some composers actually sketched their works for piano duet and orchestrated them later.

I knew you knew. Do not some of B own sonatas, written for the same fp's have a 'symphonic' power? I know that B himself used the piano whilst sketching orchestral pieces, but this is just a matter of convenience. Frankly if I want to hear these Beethoven symphonies, I believe (and call me Mr Crazy if you will) B's own efforts are at least as good as Mr L's, maybe even better!

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[PDG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter:
[B] I don't think Liszt can be accused of writing them merely to enhance his own fame, which by this time (1840)was already widely established - They were not really suitable material for this purpose and I am not aware of them appearing in Liszt's recitals,.....>>

By `his own fame`, I meant in the Wagnerian sense of trying to forever have his name mentioned in the same breath as Beethoven`s. If Liszt never performed these works, and no one else was capable, then why else did he write them?

Also, I think that Rod is correct insofar as the symphonic power of certain sonatas, esp. op. 57, is concerned. I am much more comfortable with `reducing` the form, in this case from symphonic to solo sonata, than I am with increasing it as, for example, Bernstein did by orchestrating string quartet, op. 135.

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
Also, I think that Rod is correct insofar as the symphonic power of certain sonatas, esp. op. 57, is concerned. I am much more comfortable with `reducing` the form, in this case from symphonic to solo sonata, than I am with increasing it as, for example, Bernstein did by orchestrating string quartet, op. 135.

I'd say Op.106 as well is pretty Symphonic - though paradoxically I don't think the orchestral version works as well as the piano - probably because B didn't do it !
I'm also more comfortable with transcribing for solo piano than increasing to larger forces.

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'Man know thyself'

[chrisg]

One of the great regrets of my life to date is that I have not heard any of the Beethoven nine as transcibed by Liszt. Not one. I have heard amazing things about the piano versions and I intend to get a CD with any of them ASAP.

Serge,

I suggest the recordings by Cyprien Katsaris on Teldec. They can be tough to find, but if you'd like to try them I'd be happy to send you some CDRs. E-mail me if interested.

So, having not heard them, I can offer no insight into Liszt's interpretation. I can, though, say that Liszt was a virtuoso first and composer second.

Liszt would have disagreed. He was a great composer whose music lives on, as well as the greatest virtuoso of his day.

I'm quite certain his transcriptions, if they are as complex as everyone says,were half meant as laudation of Ludwig and half as proof to the world that Liszt was the preeminent pianist of his generation (or century or millennium). The works I have heard of Liszt are all dizzyingly flashy-- enjoyable, but of relatively little substance, as far as I see.

Plenty of Liszt is just as you say, but much of it is so much more. His opera transcriptions, in the right hands, have to be heard to be believed - blatant showmanship of the best kind. To Liszt, Beethoven was the master, and his transcriptions of the symphonies are a homage. They are amazingly faithful to the spirit of the originals, with none of the empty (but fun) virtuoso flashiness you've heard in Liszt's music. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of pianistic fireworks in these transcriptions, but it's always in the service of the music, never empty.

[PDG]

Hi, chrisg,

Is the Teldec set unhindered by studio editing? - I`d love to hear such a cycle.

I agree that Liszt was a great composer; the trouble is, he was AN EVEN BETTER pianist. The mere fact of him being so gifted makes it all the more remarkable that he should idolize anyone; yet he did.....Beethoven.

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
Hi, chrisg,

Is the Teldec set unhindered by studio editing? - I`d love to hear such a cycle.

I agree that Liszt was a great composer; the trouble is, he was AN EVEN BETTER pianist. The mere fact of him being so gifted makes it all the more remarkable that he should idolize anyone; yet he did.....Beethoven.

He idolised Beethoven because he knew him to be a far superior composer !
Liszt is a very inconsistent composer, with much of his music (particularly the earlier works) being flawed by the desire simply to make something as difficult as possible to play - an example is 'La Campanella' which exists in more than one version - the one played today is child's play compared to the other versions !
His greatest work by far for me is the Totentanz followed by the Sonata - neither of which would I mention in the same breath as a Beethoven Symphony,Concerto,Sonata or Quartet.

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'Man know thyself'

[Serge]

Well, that's the way we need to remember Liszt. He spent most of his early career as a virtuoso who transcibed others' works in piano reductions for his concerts. Not till later, it seems, did he try his hand at composing.

I remember reading somewhere on the net about L.'s issues with reducing the 9th/4th mov't to piano and two hands. Said something like it couldn't truly be done because all the different aspects of the mov't could not possibly be maintained. I imagine, though, that L. gave it his best shot anyway.

[chrisg]

Originally posted by PDG:
Hi, chrisg,

Is the Teldec set unhindered by studio editing? - I`d love to hear such a cycle.

I agree that Liszt was a great composer; the trouble is, he was AN EVEN BETTER pianist. The mere fact of him being so gifted makes it all the more remarkable that he should idolize anyone; yet he did.....Beethoven.

PDG,

I can't really answer your question. I will say that what strikes me about the Katsaris recordings is that they have a spontaneous feel about them, and a real sense of enjoyment in the music. I think I know what you mean about "studio editing", which seems to produce note perfect but somehow sterile performances.

Who are the pianists in the recordings you have now?

Liszt the composer vs. Liszt the virtuoso is a bit of a moot point. Unfortunately, we will never hear him performing, but his compositions for the piano place him without a doubt among the greats. He was a great musician, and universally recognized as such by an incredible lineup of talented contemporaries. Yes, he played in concert to the impress his audience as a showman, but B's works were always part of his repetoire. He was great enough to recognize the best, and influencial enough to promote Beethoven's music as such even during the height of the Romantic movement. As much as anyone in his time, Liszt insured that Beethoven didn't go out of fashion.

cg

[PDG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chrisg:
[B] PDG,
I can't really answer your question. I will say that what strikes me about the Katsaris recordings is that they have a spontaneous feel about them, and a real sense of enjoyment in the music. I think I know what you mean about "studio editing", which seems to produce note perfect but somehow sterile performances.
Who are the pianists in the recordings you have now?>>

Chris,

By studio editing, I mean where certain parts of the recording overlap, making two or more attempts at getting a passage right sound like it was achieved in one; cheating, in other words!

My recordings are by Badura-Skoda (no.5), Glenn Gould (no.6), Konstantin Scherbakov (no.2) & nos.7 & 8 on an unmarked cd copy (!).

I always compare Liszt with Chopin in that although hugely different in style, each composed music which best suited his unique approach to playing; and each man hugely admired the other.

P.S. Have you seen Ken Russell`s OTT biopic, `Lisztomania!`? - I`ll bet our resident film buff Michael has a copy - It`s a hoot!