What is known about the 'Tenth'

[Geratlas]

I GREET YOU, FELLOW BEETHOVENIANS!
(on the 17th of December
I got registered as member.)
Let me give you the oppurtunity to show what you know (or would like to know for that matter!) concerning Beethoven's last projected symphony, the so called 'Tenth'. Although this was planned as early as by 1820, explicit sketches stem from the years 1822 to 1825, amounting upto some 350 measures altogether. It would ofcourse be only naturally that more sketches or even an work score once existed. Thus I also would like to know how you understand the stated comments made by Beethoven close to his death: »the symphony lies already (finished?) in my desk». and »all the material [for the symphony] is to be found there». I wonder... What is/are your opinion(s)? Please endow me, and I will grateful:::
Yours humbly /// GERATLAS }{

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, according to the liner notes, the sketches were about it, no working manuscript has ever been uncovered. Barry Cooper took what was there, and also some more that he found mixed among the sketches for the 9th, and "using methods that B used based on a study of his earlier symphonies and their sketches" worked out the first movement. All of the themes were present in the sketches, and what Cooper mainly wrote were the connecting phrases and the orchestration. I personally think it is an interesting work, and even though it may not bear a resemblance to what would have been B's finished product, also it may, we don't know.
As for B's statement that the finished work was on his desk, he made the same or similar statements about a multitude of his works in order to raise subscription money or an advance from a publisher. This cannot be taken at face value. I would not say he lied, rather that the truth lay closer to the finished work was "in his mind", which for him was nearly the same thing.


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Andrea]

I have the CD of this "Symphony #10" performed by the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Wyn Morris. To tell you the truth, this piece sounds more like a composition by Mendelssohn than coming from Beethoven. I really don't care for it personally and I have only listened to it twice since I bought this CD back in 1988. The last time I played it was for Peter and Bernard when they were visiting here in Vienna this past August. I had to stop playing it before it was over because we had had enough. Sorry Ludwig, but if this is what you really had planned for your 10th Symphony, it's a bit disappointing.

[This message has been edited by Andrea (edited December 21, 2003).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Andrea:
I have the CD of this "Symphony #10" performed by the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Wyn Morris. To tell you the truth, this piece sounds more like a composition by Mendelssohn than coming from Beethoven. I really don't care for it personally and I have only listened to it twice since I bought this CD back in 1988. The last time I played it was for Peter and Bernard when they were visiting here in Vienna this past August. I had to stop playing it before it was over because we had had enough. Sorry Ludwig, but if this is what you really had planned for your 10th Symphony, it's a bit disappointing.

[This message has been edited by Andrea (edited December 21, 2003).]

Andrea,
Well, I took the "thinness" as I will call it to be a result of the fact that Cooper did not want to add a lot to what was already there, thus giving us a much as possible of Beethoven and as little of Cooper, beyond the connecting phrases. It would not have been seemly for him to add a big fugato in the middle that was not indicated in the sketches, even if B may have had it in his mind to do so, nor great amounts of texture as B would surely have done. I felt that I would just take what was there as it was and perhaps write out the rest in my mind, as B surely had done. It occurs to me that Cooper was in a "lose/lose" situation, by not adding he came under fire for putting out a symphony with little depth, but if he HAD added, he would have been crucified for presuming to complete B's thoughts for him. No? Anyway, I take what I can get and go away happy.


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Geratlas]

THANKS, to all of YOU, for your soon replies!
I see you are well acquainted to the realization of the 1st movement. Good thoughts... even though I'm hoping for theories on Beethoven’s work rather than that of Dr. Barry Cooper, you shall
know I find your reflections noteworthy. As for myself, I consider Cooper did right to try to extract as much authenticity possibly, however the result. If you look at it as Cooper does you will become much more
sensible of the high-held idiom/chacteristica envisioned by Beethoven:
”The result is obviously not exactly what Beethoven would have written, and in certain places in particular he would probably have more imaginative. It also sounds more typical of middle-period than late Beethoven [...] Nevertheless, it does provide atleast a rough impression of the movement he had in mind at the time of the sketches and is certainly far closer to anything previously heard. It is therefore likely to be found extremely interesting by anyone wanting to know what he planned for the symphony that was to have followed the Ninth. Moreover it can also be appreciated as a piece of music, in a way that the fragmentary sketches
on their own could never be.” [Barry Cooper, 1989]
With these respects there’s clearly not an authentic solution, especially as it lacks developments and expressions worthy of the late master), albeit you can’t deny Beethoven’s presence - a priceless thing I believe! Over to you:::
Yours humbly}{GERATLAS

[Gurn Blanston]

Geratlas,
So, I think that the opinion of Dr. Cooper is much like mine, so I am pleased. I will leave you with this one thing, since you bring up that it sounds more middle period than late period: I think that with the last String Quartet B showed that he had finished off the direction that he was going in the late period and was going down a different path now, one which was more backward looking than he had been on, and it is perhaps that the 10th would have followed that same path as the Op 135 quartet. Who can say? For once, my opinion is as good as any, since he died before he could be more definitive.


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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Peter]

Originally posted by Geratlas:
THANKS, to all of YOU, for your soon replies!
I see you are well acquainted to the realization of the 1st movement. Good thoughts... even though I'm hoping for theories on Beethoven’s work rather than that of Dr. Barry Cooper, you shall
know I find your reflections noteworthy. As for myself, I consider Cooper did right to try to extract as much authenticity possibly, however the result. If you look at it as Cooper does you will become much more
sensible of the high-held idiom/chacteristica envisioned by Beethoven:
”The result is obviously not exactly what Beethoven would have written, and in certain places in particular he would probably have more imaginative. It also sounds more typical of middle-period than late Beethoven [...] Nevertheless, it does provide atleast a rough impression of the movement he had in mind at the time of the sketches and is certainly far closer to anything previously heard. It is therefore likely to be found extremely interesting by anyone wanting to know what he planned for the symphony that was to have followed the Ninth. Moreover it can also be appreciated as a piece of music, in a way that the fragmentary sketches
on their own could never be.” [Barry Cooper, 1989]
With these respects there’s clearly not an authentic solution, especially as it lacks developments and expressions worthy of the late master), albeit you can’t deny Beethoven’s presence - a priceless thing I believe! Over to you:::
Yours humbly}{GERATLAS

My own opinion is that it would have been better left alone. We should remember Beethoven's own words with regard to simply arranging his music - he believed no one but himself could have arranged the sonata Op.14/1 for string quartet - this was with a complete work written out in every detail! Why on earth Beethoven's sketches should be strewn together to produce a '10th symphony' I don't know - how do we know he himself was satisfied with this material? that it had reached a final form? - he may have abandoned it as he did with other major projects including the 6th piano concerto and operas. The result is unsatisfactory and not worthy of the title Beethoven's 10th!

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'Man know thyself'

[Geratlas]

Originally posted by Peter:
My own opinion is that it would have been better left alone. We should remember Beethoven's own words with regard to simply arranging his music - he believed no one but himself could have arranged the sonata Op.14/1 for string quartet - this was with a complete work written out in every detail! Why on earth Beethoven's sketches should be strewn together to produce a '10th symphony' I don't know - how do we know he himself was satisfied with this material? that it had reached a final form? - he may have abandoned it as he did with other major projects including the 6th piano concerto and operas. The result is unsatisfactory and not worthy of the title Beethoven's 10th!

WELL PUT, Peter!
I see what you mean. Beethoven would not have approved Dr. Cooper's completion, whatsoever. It's also somewhat quacky to claim the title of 'Beethoven's Symphony No. 1O' on an elixir made out of infinite ingredients, which over-boiled with tame spices, is taken to taste more like Mendelssohn than LvB. What the original recipy looked like we will never know, and as Gurn have pointed out for us we could be content with a performing version which do hommage to both B's style and persona in a fascinating if not adequate fashion.
Now, may I persuade you to leave Dr. Cooper and his completion behind, and emphasize the work actually made by Beethoven. If you have some information or thoughts on relating issues, feel as free as a humming bird to reply.
PS. I would also like to see what you think of Beethoven's arrangement's on works by other composers and folksongs.DS.
Yours humbly}{GERATLAS sending. Over to You:::

[Peter]

Originally posted by Geratlas:
WELL PUT, Peter!
I see what you mean. Beethoven would not have approved Dr. Cooper's completion, whatsoever. It's also somewhat quacky to claim the title of 'Beethoven's Symphony No. 1O' on an elixir made out of infinite ingredients, which over-boiled with tame spices, is taken to taste more like Mendelssohn than LvB. What the original recipy looked like we will never know, and as Gurn have pointed out for us we could be content with a performing version which do hommage to both B's style and persona in a fascinating if not adequate fashion.
Now, may I persuade you to leave Dr. Cooper and his completion behind, and emphasize the work actually made by Beethoven. If you have some information or thoughts on relating issues, feel as free as a humming bird to reply.
PS. I would also like to see what you think of Beethoven's arrangement's on works by other composers and folksongs.DS.
Yours humbly}{GERATLAS sending. Over to You:::

Well I can't comment on Beethoven's sketches for the 10th as his hand-writing is completely illegible to me and most people! The theme that Cooper uses in the slow section is quite lovely and typically Beethovian - who knows what the final version may have been? Just look at the processes the theme for the rondo of the Waldstein sonata went through!

The folksong arrangements are very fine and a much neglected aspect of Beethoven's work showing he took this work quite seriously. Subtle harmonies, interesting introductions and codas and a keen interest in the literary subject as his demand for the texts reveals.

I'm not aware of Beethoven's arrangements of other composers works, unless you refer to variations.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well I can't comment on Beethoven's sketches for the 10th as his hand-writing is completely illegible to me and most people! The theme that Cooper uses in the slow section is quite lovely and typically Beethovian - who knows what the final version may have been? Just look at the processes the theme for the rondo of the Waldstein sonata went through!

The folksong arrangements are very fine and a much neglected aspect of Beethoven's work showing he took this work quite seriously. Subtle harmonies, interesting introductions and codas and a keen interest in the literary subject as his demand for the texts reveals.

I'm not aware of Beethoven's arrangements of other composers works, unless you refer to variations.

I have never even considered listening to Coppers 10th. Conserning Beethoven's arrangements there is of course his arrangement of Handel's overture (fugue section) to Solomon for string quartet.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

The changes that a work of art goes thru on its way to maturity are often crises and this is especially true with Beethoven, given the furious scratchings out in his notebooks and the radical changes that he introduced into his works at even late stages in their compostiion. One important thing only can be known about the Tenth, and that is that it would have been very different from what is on that CD.

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes, it would have been different if B had completed it himself, however, I note an alarming tendency amonsgt you all here to imply that Cooper has tried to pass this off as something other than what it is. This is absolutely not true, and any notion that any of you have that it IS true is strictly a product of willful imagination. If you cannot accept that a sketch is a sketch and not a finished work by the original composer, and keep that in perspective, then you should not, indeed, even listen to it, because you will only be disappointed.


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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Yes, it would have been different if B had completed it himself, however, I note an alarming tendency amonsgt you all here to imply that Cooper has tried to pass this off as something other than what it is. This is absolutely not true, and any notion that any of you have that it IS true is strictly a product of willful imagination. If you cannot accept that a sketch is a sketch and not a finished work by the original composer, and keep that in perspective, then you should not, indeed, even listen to it, because you will only be disappointed.

That has been my understanding, as well, at least for the most part. It was interesting to hear the ideas for the sake of the ideas alone. Who knows what might have happened with those ideas, but nevertheless anything that comes from the mind of Beethoven, complete or incomplete, bears some note.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

That has been my understanding, as well, at least for the most part. It was interesting to hear the ideas for the sake of the ideas alone. Who knows what might have happened with those ideas, but nevertheless anything that comes from the mind of Beethoven, complete or incomplete, bears some note.

Sorrano,
Thank you for your comment. Yes, there are also many other sketches by B that are available, particularly of piano pieces, and I always enjoy to hear them as they are B's thoughts, even though they are not yet masterworks.
Season's Greetings,



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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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