Beethoven improvises in 1825

[Chaszz]

We had some discussion and disagreements some time ago as to whether Beethoven could have improvised for listeners after his deafness. I thought he could still have played effectively, and others more or less disagreed. Well, here is a report of an improvisation from 1825:

"...After dinner he was coaxed to play extempore, observing in French to me, "Upon what subject shall I play?" Meanwhile, he was touching the instrument thus [an 8-note theme is printed on staff, which I can't transcribe here] to which I answered, "Upon that." On which theme he played for about twentry minutes in a most extraordinary manner, sometimes very fortissimo, but full of genius. When he arose at the conclusion of his playing he appeared very agitated. No one could be more agreeable than he was -- plenty of jokes. He was in the highest of spirits..."

- London conductor Sir George Smart, who visited Beethoven in 1825. Thayer, 1964 ed., p. 963.

[Peter]

Yes but what was the quality of the playing? I've no doubt he could still play and obviously his creative powers were not impaired but he couldn't have produced a first rate performance because he would have been incapable of balancing sound and all the subtle shades of tone that are necessary. The proof that he was aware of this is that he did not perform the Emperor Concerto in public.

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'Man know thyself'

[Gurn Blanston]

Peter,
I think it likely that for the venue he chose to play, among his friends, he probably could still play like the genius he was. I am thinking that playing a set piece in a concert hall before the public and playing an ex tempore vaariations on a theme in the privacy of a place and before friends are two entirely different things. I for one would have loved to hear it, in any case.



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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Yes but what was the quality of the playing? I've no doubt he could still play and obviously his creative powers were not impaired but he couldn't have produced a first rate performance because he would have been incapable of balancing sound and all the subtle shades of tone that are necessary. The proof that he was aware of this is that he did not perform the Emperor Concerto in public.

Well, Smart was no musical novice so we can take his observations at face value:

"...On which theme he played for about twentry minutes in a most extraordinary manner, sometimes very fortissimo, but full of genius."

If there was a significant degree of fault in his playing I suspect Smart would have made something of it, as had happened from other observers on various occasions during B's piano playing career.

What pianist of any level today could improvise and be rewarded by a quote such as this? I suggest not one!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, Smart was no musical novice so we can take his observations at face value:

"...On which theme he played for about twentry minutes in a most extraordinary manner, sometimes very fortissimo, but full of genius."

If there was a significant degree of fault in his playing I suspect Smart would have made something of it, as had happened from other observers on various occasions during B's piano playing career.

What pianist of any level today could improvise and be rewarded by a quote such as this? I suggest not one!

Beethoven was always famous for his improvisations and even in youth these won more acclaim than his performances of 'written music'. Aside from Smart's observations however there are several accounts of B's declining powers as a pianist and as I have mentioned he obviously did not consider himself up to a performance of the Emperor concerto.

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'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Obviously he would not have been capable of a professional-level performance of a concerto in public, with an orchestral accompaniment. But the 'genius' in the playing as reported by Smart makes up for a lot of lost craftsmanship. Let me put it to you this way, Peter. Let's say you had the chance and the choice to go back to 1825 and spend twenty pounds to hear a recognized virtuoso play four Beethoven piano sonatas, or to pay 50 pounds to hear Beethoven improvise for 20 minutes. And let's remove the factor of being awed in B.'s presence by supposing that you had spent a week there and visited with him socially several times but hadn't heard him play. To which event would you go?

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited December 14, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Obviously he would not have been capable of a professional-level performance of a concerto in public, with an orchestral accompaniment. But the 'genius' in the playing as reported by Smart makes up for a lot of lost craftsmanship. Let me put it to you this way, Peter. Let's say you had the chance and the choice to go back to 1825 and spend twenty pounds to hear a recognized virtuoso play four Beethoven piano sonatas, or to pay 50 pounds to hear Beethoven improvise for 20 minutes. And let's remove the factor of being awed in B.'s presence by supposing that you had spent a week there and visited with him socially several times but hadn't heard him play. To which event would you go?

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited December 14, 2003).]

Hardly a fair question! I'd have paid a lot more than that just to hear him play one note!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Beethoven was always famous for his improvisations and even in youth these won more acclaim than his performances of 'written music'. Aside from Smart's observations however there are several accounts of B's declining powers as a pianist and as I have mentioned he obviously did not consider himself up to a performance of the Emperor concerto.

Of course I am aware of all this, nevertheless it could have been possible, perhaps, for Beethoven to have found something of his old spirit again, providing the social circumstances were agreable to him. It's not a big issue, but I would hesitiate to regard the term 'full of genius' as a patronising remark in Beethoven's case even at this late stage.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin