"Our Best"

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sophia:
I believe that whoever has read my previous posts knows what I think about top 3, top 10, top 100 lists: absolutely nothing. These lists are for people who can't understand anything unless it has a sign on it. These lists are for people like the great G.W.Bush junior, the great leader of the american democracy, and such a smart fellow!!!

Beethove himself had his self-confessed favourites. Are you comparing his inteligence too with Bush's?



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Pastorali]

These top list's are not my thing too, but I take it easy, it's mere to smile about.
But I like such lists here in the forum, because that gives me an idea, what other people's favorites are. It can be the best for a particular moment... Why not?

I'm glad we have so much of best music for so many moments!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Pastorali:
These top list's are not my thing too, but I take it easy, it's mere to smile about.
But I like such lists here in the forum, because that gives me an idea, what other people's favorites are. It can be the best for a particular moment... Why not?

I'm glad we have so much of best music for so many moments!

I don't like lists myself, but there is music I like and music I certainly do not like. I judge each composer on their own merit as I hear the music. My 'list' as such consists only of those whom I believe had a perfect all-round 'music formula'. Within this list I accept I feel no real need to rank, but then my list consists only of two men in any case!

Given the generaly poor response to the mp3 posts, designed as vehicles for the discussion of these specific Beethoven works, even within this forum one could say Beethoven is a low ranker!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Steppenwolf]

There is one major name missing from the top of that list. I am not going to say who, because those who know my posts should already know, and I can't be bothered launching into another big argument about him.
Aside from that, Goethe should be higher. 7th is far to low. In my opinion, Goethe, like Beethoven, represents the pinnacle of Western culture. In Goethe, in particularly his magnum opus Faust, our culture reached its highest level of clarity and self-consciousness. Mozart, as well, is disgracefully absent, but that point has been addressed by other posters, above.
And who the hell is Konrad Adenauer?? ... I don't think much of whoever came up with this list. It stands for nothing, in my opinion.

[spaceray]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:


Given the generaly poor response to the mp3 posts, designed as vehicles for the discussion of these specific Beethoven works, even within this forum one could say Beethoven is a low ranker!

Rod ,
I'm a bit intimidated discussing the merits of these wonderful offerings of yours due to my lack of knowledege in music speak.I can only say that I have these littered all over my desktop for easy access and play them frequently.As a relative beginer I have not yet narrowed my focus down to a handfull of favorites and likely never will .But in the music of the two composers you enjoy I must say that your taste is exquisite.I envy your CD collection and am grateful(as I have often said)for your generosity.Please have pity for those whose computers are connected
by molassass as mine is ,a single 5 1/2 min mp3 could take upwards of 25 min to down load.

[Sophia]

Originally posted by Rod:
Beethove himself had his self-confessed favourites. Are you comparing his inteligence too with Bush's?

We all have favourites. Do we all rank them though? Did Beethoven rank them? Do you really think that playing the game of who is better: Beethoven, or Bach, or Mozart, or whoever, do you think that this is productive? When we are talking abouit such composers, I think that ranking them is just out of place. Yes, we all have favourites, and yes, we all compare -generally speaking-between good music, mediocre music and bad music. I don't reject comparison. Comparison is unavoidable.

Yes, we all have favourites... But why do we need to put numbers on them? Why can't we rest untill we have them all nicely labelled and sorted out? I am posing a question here that -to be franck- I think has nothing to do with music. It has everything to do with the way we have been TAUGHT to look upon things, to measure them, to perceive their existance and PLACE in the world. In other words, it has everything to do with the way western man perceives the world around him.

[Rod]

Originally posted by spaceray:

Rod ,
I'm a bit intimidated discussing the merits of these wonderful offerings of yours due to my lack of knowledege in music speak.I can only say that I have these littered all over my desktop for easy access and play them frequently.As a relative beginer I have not yet narrowed my focus down to a handfull of favorites and likely never will .But in the music of the two composers you enjoy I must say that your taste is exquisite.I envy your CD collection and am grateful(as I have often said)for your generosity.Please have pity for those whose computers are connected
by molassass as mine is ,a single 5 1/2 min mp3 could take upwards of 25 min to down load.

Please remember I have no musical education myself muriel! I'm not interested in complex musical analysis or a dissection of the score (not that I would understand much of such a dissection!). An approval or dissaproval, or comparisons with other recordings or some other historical info would be welcome.

I appreciate the download issues and the current file is quite large, but I have not seen the Hanover Band set in the CD shops for a long time here in London nor during my recent trip to Paris, so perhaps this will be the only opportunity to hear their efforts for some people.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sophia:
We all have favourites. Do we all rank them though? Did Beethoven rank them? Do you really think that playing the game of who is better: Beethoven, or Bach, or Mozart, or whoever, do you think that this is productive? When we are talking abouit such composers, I think that ranking them is just out of place. Yes, we all have favourites, and yes, we all compare -generally speaking-between good music, mediocre music and bad music. I don't reject comparison. Comparison is unavoidable.

Yes, we all have favourites... But why do we need to put numbers on them? Why can't we rest untill we have them all nicely labelled and sorted out? I am posing a question here that -to be franck- I think has nothing to do with music. It has everything to do with the way we have been TAUGHT to look upon things, to measure them, to perceive their existance and PLACE in the world. In other words, it has everything to do with the way western man perceives the world around him.

There is no need to put numbers, just have a benchmarch for artistic quality. Though Beethoven had respect for many composers, during the late period he was falling over himself in his praise for Handel as the 'greatest composer'. On occasion he said this in direct comparison with Mozart who was his earlier hero. Thus by default Beethoven himself had a ranking system.

My own preference has not been the result of any external influence, I never even listened to classical music until I was 20. Some of the music the establishment ranks highly, I think is rubbish! Who is to say? After 17 subsequent years I can safely say only Beethoven and Handel can consistantly hold my interest in the realm of classical music.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 05, 2003).]

[Pastorali]

Originally posted by Rod:
After 17 subsequent years I can safely say only Beethoven and Handel can consistantly hold my interest in the realm of classical music.

Rod
You are often talking about Händel. For me, as I know very less about him (almost nothing), could you give an idea to me to explore Händel?? Which works would you prefer for a beginner? Cause until now, I thought it's a bit boring to me, but they seem to be the wrong pieces, I have listen to...

[Rod]

Originally posted by Pastorali:
Rod
You are often talking about Händel. For me, as I know very less about him (almost nothing), could you give an idea to me to explore Händel?? Which works would you prefer for a beginner? Cause until now, I thought it's a bit boring to me, but they seem to be the wrong pieces, I have listen to...

For the precise reason that nobody seems to know much about Handel (I used to be one of those!) I started my own site, promoting his lesser known works, with mp3s for members like you have here.

It seems for a long time the musical establishment had little time for Handel during the C20th, so average CM fans were did not have much opportunity to hear the compositions other than Messiah and Water Music etc. This factor combined with the total inability of the symphony orchestras to play Handel in a satisfactory manner (one could say the same concerning Beethoven!) I think made people (like me) think Handel was not such an important composer, despite Beethoven's oft repeated praise. However the growing authentic instrument movement during the 80's and 90's has changed matters quite a bit, now you can hear the music (and Beethoven's too) performed in something like an appropriate manner, which more truely reveals its quality.

The URL for my site is always to be found in my profile but I'll present it here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/handelforum/

All of Handel's music is very accessible, as you will hear for yourself if you join my site.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin




[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 05, 2003).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Sophia:
We all have favourites. Do we all rank them though? Did Beethoven rank them? Do you really think that playing the game of who is better: Beethoven, or Bach, or Mozart, or whoever, do you think that this is productive? When we are talking abouit such composers, I think that ranking them is just out of place. Yes, we all have favourites, and yes, we all compare -generally speaking-between good music, mediocre music and bad music. I don't reject comparison. Comparison is unavoidable.

Yes, we all have favourites... But why do we need to put numbers on them? Why can't we rest untill we have them all nicely labelled and sorted out? I am posing a question here that -to be franck- I think has nothing to do with music. It has everything to do with the way we have been TAUGHT to look upon things, to measure them, to perceive their existance and PLACE in the world. In other words, it has everything to do with the way western man perceives the world around him.

I am reminded of a musician friend, whom I asked one day which composer was his favorite. He gave me a funny look and said that all of them were. Some days I find I prefer certain types of music to others--certain composers over others. One day my favorite work will be Beethoven's 5th Piano Concerto. Another day it will be Bruckner's Te Deum. But over all, I like both works very much and hate validating one over the other.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Sophia:
We all have favourites. Do we all rank them though? Did Beethoven rank them? Do you really think that playing the game of who is better: Beethoven, or Bach, or Mozart, or whoever, do you think that this is productive? When we are talking abouit such composers, I think that ranking them is just out of place. Yes, we all have favourites, and yes, we all compare -generally speaking-between good music, mediocre music and bad music. I don't reject comparison. Comparison is unavoidable.

Yes, we all have favourites... But why do we need to put numbers on them? Why can't we rest untill we have them all nicely labelled and sorted out? I am posing a question here that -to be franck- I think has nothing to do with music. It has everything to do with the way we have been TAUGHT to look upon things, to measure them, to perceive their existance and PLACE in the world. In other words, it has everything to do with the way western man perceives the world around him.

Sophia, I think this is an excellent observation. But as Rod points out, Beethoven ranked composers also, although probably he would not have written a top ten list.

Just a related matter, in another way I think Beethoven is quintessenially Western. The West tends to divide things into opposing polarities, while in the East there is more emphasis on the harmony of the whole. Even the yin and yang are not opposed but two complementary parts of a circle. In the West there is God and the devil, good and evil, emotion vs. rationality, Romantic vs. classical, Hegel's dialectic of history where one side buries the other, the two contrasting themes in sonata form, and on and on. The two sides must often struggle for dominance or eventual peace. I have often noticed this view applied in critisism or other writing as if it were a fact of nature, when in reality it's just a mindset.
E.g., "On the one hand we have such and such, on the other we have, etc." as if there are always only two hands. Maybe this is why so many Eastern idols have many arms!

Beethoven I think gave the greatest expression to this tendency in music. The extreme contrasts of softness and loudness which he sometimes uses are only the most obvious examples, which include opposing forces in design, theme, timbre, tempo, in programatic expression, such as the thunderstorm and its sunny aftermath in the Pastoral, and the outburst of triumph over adversity or evil in the finale of the fifth. Perhaps in the late quartets he transcends this worldview to a higher region of sublimity, but in most of his work, he is a perfect example of the restless questing Westerner.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
I don't like lists myself, but there is music I like and music I certainly do not like. I judge each composer on their own merit as I hear the music. My 'list' as such consists only of those whom I believe had a perfect all-round 'music formula'. Within this list I accept I feel no real need to rank, but then my list consists only of two men in any case!

Given the generaly poor response to the mp3 posts, designed as vehicles for the discussion of these specific Beethoven works, even within this forum one could say Beethoven is a low ranker!

I'm much more familiar with Beethoven's middle and late works, and am waiting for these to appear in "authentic" verisons, at which time you'll see more responses from me, anyway. And maybe some others are waiting for these too.

But don't get too upset if I say I prefer this by Tocanini or Furtwangler, or that by Rudolf Serkin!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

But don't get too upset if I say I prefer this by Tocanini or Furtwangler, or that by Rudolf Serkin!

I safely predict you will not feel the need!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin