"Our Best"

[Pastorali]

The german tv station ZDF made an event to find out the "best german person". A view days ago they had finished that thing and this is the ranking.

1. Konrad Adenauer
2. Martin Luther
3. Karl Marx
4. Hans + Sophie Scholl
5. Willy Brandt
6. Johann Sebastian Bach
7. Goethe
8. Johannes Gutenberg
9. Otto von Bismark
10. Albert Einstein

The word seems to have more power than music. Don't ask me, on wich place our maestro is to find – I haven't found it out. It's such a rubbish, that website, my nervs and my browser gave it up to search on...

Here ist the link http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/31/0,...051839,00.html

[Andrea]

Beethoven came in at #12 and Händel wasn't even on the list. Bad enough that there were a few Austrians on that list that shouldn't have been there, like Mozart. Or is it that since Austria is a german speaking country that makes its famous citizens automatically "german"? I can tell you that Austria is not at all happy that Germany has included so many Austrians in their "famous German" list.

[Pastorali]

I'm surpised! Haven't seen that, because I did not follow it. That's strange and not to explain...
In the case of Beethoven, maybe the german society have somehow not excused, that he emigrated of his country and left to Austria. Would be squared but possible.

PS: To be true, I thought Dieter Bohlen, or something like that, will win...

[Chaszz]

Like most any top 100 list, this is fodder for outrage and superficial in many ways. In leaving out Handel completely, and in ranking tennis stars Steffi Graf and Boris Becker above Kant and Gauss, the mass of voters have shown what the list is worth.

[spaceray]

I agree Chas.zz these lists are just foolishness.

[SR]

Originally posted by Andrea:
Beethoven came in at #12 and Händel wasn't even on the list. Bad enough that there were a few Austrians on that list that shouldn't have been there, like Mozart. Or is it that since Austria is a german speaking country that makes its famous citizens automatically "german"? I can tell you that Austria is not at all happy that Germany has included so many Austrians in their "famous German" list.

It's because at Mozarts birth, Salzburg was not part of Austria. Mozart was born and in his mind died a German.

Steve

[Peter]

Originally posted by SR:

It's because at Mozarts birth, Salzburg was not part of Austria. Mozart was born and in his mind died a German.

Steve

There wasn't a German state then either - perhaps we should think of him as a Bavarian?

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'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Andrea:
Beethoven came in at #12 and Händel wasn't even on the list. Bad enough that there were a few Austrians on that list that shouldn't have been there, like Mozart. Or is it that since Austria is a german speaking country that makes its famous citizens automatically "german"? I can tell you that Austria is not at all happy that Germany has included so many Austrians in their "famous German" list.

Andrea,

I would have thought, perhaps in my obtuseness, that Austrians regarded themselves as Germans whom the perverseness of history had relegated to a separate nationality. That had it not been for the Hapsburg dynasty they would have been part of the new German nation in 1870. While perhaps some would be glad to be non-Germans because of the Nazis. What do you find to be the real case?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Andrea:
Beethoven came in at #12 and Händel wasn't even on the list. Bad enough that there were a few Austrians on that list that shouldn't have been there, like Mozart. Or is it that since Austria is a german speaking country that makes its famous citizens automatically "german"? I can tell you that Austria is not at all happy that Germany has included so many Austrians in their "famous German" list.

I've met a few Germans interested in classical music over the years, but none of them had much time for Beethoven or Handel especially, they were stuck into Bach and/or the Romantics.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Andrea]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Andrea,

I would have thought, perhaps in my obtuseness, that Austrians regarded themselves as Germans whom the perverseness of history had relegated to a separate nationality. That had it not been for the Hapsburg dynasty they would have been part of the new German nation in 1870. While perhaps some would be glad to be non-Germans because of the Nazis. What do you find to be the real case?

Well Chaszz, Austrians do speak german but they definately do not consider themselves "German" and Germans do not consider themselves "Austrian". You also wouldn't say that someone from Mexico or South America is a "spaniard" just because they speak spanish. Americans and Australians speak english but you don't dare say that they are "English". My guess is that this has to do with national pride for the country you were born in.

Now my husband is Austrian and his feathers get a bit ruffled when someone thinks he is a German. Funny, since his father was born in Germany. My father's family name is Gomez and he would bite your head off everytime someone asked him if he was mexican (his parents were from Spain). Now that I am married to an Austrian I consider myself an "Austro-American".

[Pastorali]

Every country has it's own national pride. But the composers didn't care about it – they went to where the music was. At that time it was Vienna.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
I've met a few Germans interested in classical music over the years, but none of them had much time for Beethoven or Handel especially, they were stuck into Bach and/or the Romantics.

"Stuck in" conjures up images of music lovers imprisoned in pillory stocks, put there by the town fathers. The town fathers in this case are undoubtedly the classical music establishment, which as we all know cannot convert many young acolytes at all, but those it does convert it somehow manages to "stick" into Bach and the Romantics. The young acolytes of course having no minds of their own. An awful situation if it did exist, but Rod, you will no doubt remedy it with your efforts on these boards.

P.S. And if Handel is so neglected, why, every time I turn around, is some group in New York putting on another Handel opera? He is rivalling Puccini and Verdi here lately.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited December 03, 2003).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
"Stuck in" conjures up images of music lovers imprisoned in pillory stocks, put there by the town fathers. The town fathers in this case are undoubtedly the classical music establishment, which as we all know cannot convert many young acolytes at all, but those it does convert it somehow manages to "stick" into Bach and the Romantics. The young acolytes of course having no minds of their own. An awful situation if it did exist, but Rod, you will no doubt remedy it with your efforts on these boards.

P.S. And if Handel is so neglected, why, every time I turn around, is some group in New York putting on another Handel opera? He is rivalling Puccini and Verdi here lately.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited December 03, 2003).]

I am suspect about the taste of anyone who claims to like classical music yet does not rate Beethoven and Handel at least amongst their top 4!

Concerning Handl opera, yes indeed there has been a big revival as these works are now being recognised. Perhaps one day Handel will replace Mozart and the Italians as the opera goers favourite!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sophia]

I believe that whoever has read my previous posts knows what I think about top 3, top 10, top 100 lists: absolutely nothing. These lists are for people who can't understand anything unless it has a sign on it. These lists are for people like the great G.W.Bush junior, the great leader of the american democracy, and such a smart fellow!!!

[Pastorali]

Originally posted by Sophia:
I believe that whoever has read my previous posts knows what I think about top 3, top 10, top 100 lists: absolutely nothing. These lists are for people who can't understand anything unless it has a sign on it. These lists are for people like the great G.W.Bush junior, the great leader of the american democracy, and such a smart fellow!!!

I think Chaszz has pointed it very well: "...this is fodder for outrage ... the mass of voters have shown what the list is worth."

Your judgement on the fellow is pretty hard...
"Beethoven??? Yes, that's a movie with a dog!"



[This message has been edited by Pastorali (edited December 03, 2003).]