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**Andrea** · 11-22-2003, 12:49 PM

I've never heard of there being an age problem with the Wiener Philharmoniker. Now what I have heard about there not being any women in it for so many years is that here in Austria when a woman takes maternity leave, she gets 3 years off. For some employers that is a bit too long.

**Gurn Blanston** · 11-22-2003, 02:19 PM

Is this (gender bias) still an issue there? I remember 2-3 years ago hearing that the VPO (my favorite orchestra, BTW) was now having women players after so many years of not. Your article references the late '90's, perhaps what was true then is not so now, as this was perhaps 2000 or '01 that I read this. Perhaps it is merely a tradition that they had been loathe to overthrow in these days of no respect for tradition? Oh well, as long as they are playing so well, I don't care who is playing, in truth.

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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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**Rod** · 11-22-2003, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Frohlich:
[B]
Are all orchetra's sexist, and if so why?
Perhaps it all boils down to 'testosterone'...
B]

In period instrument orchestras (the only ones I am interested in)one often sees quite a lot of women amongst the ranks.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

**Joy** · 11-22-2003, 03:06 PM

I recall hearing about the VPO a few years ago as well and wonder if that still goes on today. I imagine it's just tradition with them. As for the Phoenix Symphony here in Arizona the orchestra is about half and half in the gender department. Females making up a greater portion of the string instruments and males all the percussion section, I wonder what that tells us?!!

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'Truth and beauty joined'

**Steppenwolf** · 11-22-2003, 03:29 PM

Toscanini is right, and his quote serves to illustrate why political correctness inevitably and necessarily drags society down to the level of the lowest common denominator - either down to popularist garbage like rap music or deranged, degenerate, pretensious crap posing as modern 'art' (eg. the Turner prize). If everyone and everything is equal, there is no point in aspiring to a higher level ... the lowest level is equally valid therefore to equalise everyone, those who dare to assert superiority must be dragged down to the lowest level.

So, any systems of quotas regarding male-female composition must be rejected. Auditions should be done with the musician behind a curtain so the sex is unimportant in the decision making process ... however if that method of selection produces more male members then the result should be accepted and left untouched.

No doubt some instruments may be better played by men, but I really would be surprised if the same could be said of all. For gusto and strength, perhaps men would be better .. but there are instruments of more subtlety, and passages in music of a delicate and more lyric quality that surely may be better suited to female interpretation.

**Frohlich** · 11-22-2003, 06:16 PM

In my view, one of the most accomplished and outstanding of all modern conductors is a lady called Jane Glover, I have heard her interpretations of Mozart and they are brilliant. In my book and my other halves view, she is a finer conductor of the repertoire she specializes in than virtually anyone conducting. My husband recalls a wonderfull concert he attented about 10 years ago in London where she played a couple of Mozart piano concerto's and a symphony, which he still raves about today. Of late, she seems to ration her appearances and she seems to have slipped from public view, but watch out when she re-appears. Forget Simon Rattle and all the hype the surrounds him, Jane Glover is the one to look out for.

Andrea, about maternity leave, 3 years does seem rather extravagant, perhaps thats the reason why German companies are going bust and the German economy is slipping into the mire. I understand in the UK, the maternity leave is limited to 7-8 months max.
Yes of course it is a great idea for a mother and a child to be kept together for those important formative years, but the question is, who is going to pay for such lengthy abscences.
I love the V P O, and on the subject of female musicians, there was a wonderful first violinist lady in the Royal Philharmonic who we heard in a Beethoven concert a few months back, and she really led from the front and dominated the whole performance of the 9th.

Regards
Amalie.

[This message has been edited by Frohlich (edited November 24, 2003).]

**urtextmeister** · 11-24-2003, 05:05 PM

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
No doubt some instruments may be better played by men, but I really would be surprised if the same could be said of all. For gusto and strength, perhaps men would be better .. but there are instruments of more subtlety, and passages in music of a delicate and more lyric quality that surely may be better suited to female interpretation. [/B]

This kind of statement is damaging to female musicians. Unlike sports and jobs with the fire department, playing a musical instrument is equally possible for women and men. I can not think of any instrument in which gender is an advantage. You could point out something like tuba, which requires a huge lung capacity and endurance. I know a young woman who is one of the most promising tuba players in this country. And she is fairly petite woman at that.

What is worse than implying some women are less suited physically than men for certain instruments is the 19th century notion that women will approach music more "delicately" than men.

I would probably start with Jacqueline du Pre and Martha Argerich as examples of players who were/are as "strong" and exciting as any male counterpart.

I think prejudice still exists among the older generation of male musicians. My teachers were somewhat prejudiced against women musicians. Those that I work with now are not.
Rod made a good point about authentic instrument people. I think these are generally younger people and the movement itself is young. Maybe you could comment on that, Rod.

**Chaszz** · 11-24-2003, 06:34 PM

I think women should go and do whatever they want to attempt, and am glad to see them in so many places and positions today that they were barred from years ago. It is sad to think of the human race having been deprived of the creative efforts of half its members for so long, and still so today in many many countries and places.
How sad also to read about Fanny Mendelssohn, who by some accounts had compositional talent equal to Felix's, but was advised by all, expecially strongly by her brother, to take her 'proper' place in life and not pursue music.

The Vienna Philharmonic has hired a few women since 1997, but there are still only 4 or 5 in the orchestra. Opinion of about a third of the group is still very much against them, according to insiders, so it is extremely difficult for them to win votes and obtain jobs.

The blind tests which Steppenwolf advises have been used at the VPO, but the results have been set aside if it is not a white male who appears when the curtain is raised on the winner after the judging!!: http://www.osborne-conant.org/flier.htm

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited November 24, 2003).]

**Frohlich** · 11-25-2003, 06:23 AM

Thanks for the interesting links Chaszz,
I don't wish to be politicaly incorrect here, and we must be mindful that muscle man 'Arnie' is now governor of California, but generally speaking my impression is that Austrian politics is pretty unreconstructed in the sense that they still have some biases against Jews, women, coloureds etc, I think I am right in saying they have still not apologized for the second world war, where as Germany has literally been destroyed in heart and soul through its continued penitence for its sins of the past, to the point where it does not really have an army of can defend itself, and is completely reliant on NATO.
It really would do the Austrians good to loosen up, but I am not advocating decades of penitence as in the German example, which has only really emasculated German people.

I say this wearing my bullet proof vest!

**Andrea** · 11-25-2003, 06:54 AM

Here's an article I found on this subject:

Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra

"To have a baby, and then to be trotted in front of your own orchestra to prove you can still play is an affront to human dignity, and unworthy of any cultural institution." (A woman musician)

A Difficult Birth: Reauditioning after Maternity Leave In the Vienna Philharmonic

by William Osborne

Recently the Vienna Philharmonic has met with increasing protest due to its ideology that gender and ethnic uniformity give it aesthetic superiority. (1) The Austrian government is pressuring the orchestra to admit women, the international media is raking them over the coals, and protests are planned at coming performances in Los Angeles and New York. (2) Since the Vienna Philharmonic cannot openly defend its ideologies, it has been forced to fall back on the excuse that they exclude women due to artistic problems caused by maternity leave. Many European orchestras have shown, however, that maternity leave does not present significant problems, even with Europe's relatively liberal maternity laws. Nevertheless, the Vienna Philharmonic has remained adamant and is proposing that women be allowed into the orchestra only if they reaudition after taking maternity leave. In this article I will discuss why maternity leave is not really a problem, the lack of gender parity in the new regulations, and the psychological appeal the proposed reaudition procedures have to the misogynist mind-set.

The protest against the Vienna Philharmonic reached a turning point on January 16, 1997. Ioan Holender, the Director of the Vienna State Opera, announced that women would be allowed to audition for the Philharmonic's parent organization, the Vienna State Opera orchestra, effective immediately. (Currently the only women in the opera orchestra are two harpists.) "From this moment on," he declared, "I want to see the applications for the auditions, and to know how many qualified women applicants will be invited. And I have also explained my standpoint, that from this moment on women must be employed if they win an audition."

Even though the Vienna Philharmonic is nominally a private and self-governing organization, its charter requires it to draw its members exclusively from the State Opera orchestra. It will thus be only a matter of time before the Philharmonic will also be forced to accept women--probably about six to ten years.

In response to Holender's decision, the Philharmonic's leadership and officials of the Austrian government, formulated new leave-of-absence regulations for the orchestra, which they openly state are aimed at reducing or discouraging maternity leave. The Philharmonic says this will insure its artistic continuity. (3) If a woman takes a maternity leave of less than one year she must reaudition upon her return, but without competition from other candidates. If she is gone more than one year, her position will be advertised and she must compete against other applicants.(4) The orchestra says this stipulation must be established before they will allow women membership.(5) Women would thus associate maternity with the possible loss of their jobs.

The Vienna Philharmonic insists that the new regulations are necessary due to Europe's strong maternity laws. In Austria women are barred from working for eight weeks before and after the birth of their child. This is called Mutterschutz. This leave can be voluntarily extended up to 18 months, and this longer period is referred to as Karenz.(6) The Vienna Philharmonic says that women would take Karenz leave for years and damage the artistic quality of the orchestra. Wolfgang Schuster, the orchestra's Press Secretary, has even suggested the Philharmonic would have to increase its personnel by 25% due to the absences.(7)

These claims seem unfounded. Simple monetary considerations indicate that women would not unnecessarily extend maternity leave. The compensation for Karenz is only $450 per month.(8) By contrast, a woman at work would average about $8,000 per month from the Vienna Philharmonic on top of her salary from the Vienna State Opera.(9)

The Philharmonic's concerns also seem unfounded because numerous studies s show that absenteeism by professional men and women is approximately equal. This conclusion is further substantiated by studies which demonstrate that women in prestige positions such as the Vienna Philharmonic have fewer children, and that they consider their careers more important than extended maternity leave.

These rather obvious observations were confirmed by Holender, "I have young singers in the ensemble, even those who have had children on the side. For them, career was more important than pregnancy leave."(10) It is also to be noted that Austrian law allows fathers to take post-natal paternity leave. These factors indicate that there is little justification for excluding women or altering their maternity leave rights.

This view was confirmed by Sabine Meyer--one of the world's premiere clarinet soloists--in an interview in Der Spiegel, which is Germany's largest news magazine. When questioned about the Vienna Philharmonic's maternity leave concerns she was incredulous:

" ...oh God, the same old story. Naturally it can happen that a pregnancy doesn't proceed as unproblematically as one expects. And so? That can't be a reason for not hiring a woman. Men, through accident or sickness can also be suddenly absent. I felt great during my two pregnancies, I never played better or more beautifully! Even in the eighth month I was standing on the stage.(11)

Meyer was also disdainful when asked about the belief that maternity reduces musical quality:

"Rubbish. Children can enrich a musician enormously, give her strength, improve her expressive capabilities. One is quite quickly back at one's performance level. It is a question of organization--and by the way, also on the part of the orchestra." (12)

Meyer's views are shared by a wide spectrum of European society and it has become very rare for orchestras to raise the maternity leave issue.

The Vienna Philharmonic was thus very concerned that their maternity leave proposal be written in a "politically correct" fashion. It states that all "men and women" who take an extended leave for any reason must reaudition upon their return.(13) This does not disguise the irony that the stated purpose of the regulations is to dismantle the job protection of pregnant women. Some question that the regulations will even stand up in court.

It is also ironic that the Philharmonic wants to reduce the rights of women, since men have long enjoyed special privileges as members of the orchestra. They are exempted from Austria's compulsory military service. And they are allowed a one time, one year sabbatical with no reaudition requirement.(14) Reauditioning for "men and women" was deemed necessary only when it became apparent women might enter the orchestra.

One of the most interesting aspects of the proposal is that the men are sacrificing their right to take leave without reauditioning, since they feel the same privilege cannot be trusted in the hands of women. But the reduction of rights for both men and women does not necessarily create parity. Since men do not bear children, they are not as dependent on taking leave. The men are giving up considerably less than women.

In reality the Philharmonic has raised the maternity issue because it detracts attention from the fact that 149 white men are making music based specifically on an aesthetic ideology of gender and ethnic uniformity. On February 18th the Vienna Philharmonic will vote on this maternity issue. No women will vote, since none are in the orchestra. With no representation by or for women, women's rights will be dismantled.

These ironies explain why the Vienna Philharmonic is the only orchestra in the world to advocate the grotesque idea of "postpartum reauditioning."

Perhaps it it would be less ironic to briefly examine some of the psychological factors that explain why the proposal has a special appeal to the misogynist mind-set. It should be clear that forcing a woman to reaudition after giving birth allows men to subject her to a particularly demeaning form of objectified control that could provide sadistic satisfaction. It is essential to the misogynist psyche to objectify women, particularly in regard to their sexuality. Women are thus reduced from being individuals with a creative identity to a mere "phenomenon of nature" with a reproductive function. This view informs the Vienna Philharmonic, which assumes that if the biologically determined nature of women were left unregulated it would destroy the artistic quality of the orchestra.

As absurd as all of this may seem, the same motives inform the postpartum "cleansing" rituals surrounding female sexuality in many cultures. These rituals presumably ensure that women who have given birth are once again made acceptable to participate in society. Similarly, women in the Philharmonic would be subjected to an audition procedure to ensure that they are once again acceptable to participate in the ensemble. In many "primitive" societies these rituals were invented by women and presided over by them, and are definitely associated with the "holiness of woman" as the bringer of life. But in the Philharmonic the rituals would have a different function. They would enforce and inform a secondary status for women as a birth-giving "phenomenon of nature" in contrast to the socially conditioned creative autonomy of men.

The special testing proposed by the Vienna Philharmonic thus contains a clear element of denigration which serves a particular function in the employment policies of a misogynist orchestra.(15) By forcing women to reaudition after maternity, they would be subjected to a subtle and almost voyeuristic form of genderized testing which would discourage them from entering the orchestra, and which could eventually even drive them out of it. The proposed regulations are thus another example of the misogynist trials and tests with which the history of many cultures are replete, and whose purpose has often been the sadistic objectification and control of feminine creativity on the reproductive, spiritual, and intellectual levels.(16)

In conclusion, we have seen that Austria's current maternity laws would not hinder the "artistic continuity" of the Vienna Philharmonic, and that there is no reason to further limit maternity leave. There are, however, four principle motives that explain why the Vienna Philharmonic proposes that women reaudition after maternity, and they can be summarized as follows:

1) The maternity leave proposal is a subterfuge to detract public attention from the orchestra's belief that gender and ethnic uniformity produce aesthetic superiority.
2) Through reaudition procedures which emphasize the reproductive role of women, they are subtilely denigrated and thus discouraged from entering the orchestra.
3) Forcing women to reaudition after maternity provides a subliminally sadistic and sexually oriented satisfaction to the misogynist psyche of the orchestra.
4) A postpartum ritual is a psychological aid that helps the orchestra accept and control the creative power of women.

It is therefore understandable that many women feel the Vienna Philharmonic's reauditioning proposal is an act of bad faith, and that the orchestra is not serious about allowing them membership. As one women put it, "To have a baby, and then to be trotted in front of your own orchestra to prove you can still play is an affront to human dignity, and unworthy of any cultural institution."

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Just goes to show you, it's a man's world!

**Joy** · 11-25-2003, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by Chaszz:

The blind tests which Steppenwolf advises have been used at the VPO, but the results have been set aside if it is not a white male who appears when the curtain is raised on the winner after the judging!!: http://www.osborne-conant.org/flier.htm

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited November 24, 2003).]

Then what's the point?

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'Truth and beauty joined'

**Chaszz** · 11-26-2003, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by Joy:
Then what's the point?

I suppose one would have to ask the esteemed musicians. Perhaps if two caucasian males are competing, the best one of these is selected, and all others can forget it.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited November 26, 2003).]

**Frohlich** · 11-26-2003, 07:31 PM

**Gurn Blanston** · 11-27-2003, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by Frohlich:

Amalie,
Brief, and yet profound! I think this is a record as your shortest post ever! ;-))

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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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Vienna Philharmonic, Sexist !

Vienna Philharmonic, Sexist !

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