Eroica - The Movie

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:


So I think they'd have done better with a documentary introduction followed by the performance, the drama was confusing and silly - aside from some factual errors the context of events was never properly established.

Thanks for the critique but I assumed as much. I totally agree that a documentary introduction and then just let the music speak for itself is always the way to go. Too bad another movie bites the dust. We will just have to make our own! Did you also watch B's life and music explored by conductor Nikolaus Harnoncourt? And after that the Beethoven violin sonatas as Michael had talked about which were shown after "Eroica"?



------------------
'Truth and beauty joined'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
The whole symphony was performed and I very much enjoyed this aspect.

I enjoyed it less. Gardiner's heavy-handed direction of the music was apparent from the start. But at least they used a real period instrument band as opposed to some Vienna Symphony Orchestra overdub.

However I was not expecting Beethoven's manner of conducting to be that of just sitting in a chair and doing nothing for most of the music.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

Originally posted by Amalie:
Thankyou for commentary Peter, but I rather suspected this would be case .
The BBC have a problem nowadays as many have noticed about great European cultural figures of the past. I didn't see the performance as I don't have a TV, but it is the same old stuff time and time again.
Some minor researcher at the BBC comes up with a few distorted facts about Beethoven, couldn't care less whether it is checked or not, controller thinks it would be a good idea to keep in with the few intelligent remaining viewers of British TV, then serves up some ridiculous farrago of nonesense just to prove it still remembers the name of the greatest of all composers.

[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited October 05, 2003).]

You are correct, Amalie, but it's no different here in the US. Hollywood is Hollywood and just keeps cranking out the same old fiction that they always try to pass on to the movie goers as the truth. Adding their own little ideas to make the story more 'interesting'. I don't think we will ever get just a straight out truthful good biography movie on Beethoven let alone anyone else.



------------------
'Truth and beauty joined'

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Joy:
You are correct, Amalie, but it's no different here in the US. Hollywood is Hollywood and just keeps cranking out the same old fiction that they always try to pass on to the movie goers as the truth. Adding their own little ideas to make the story more 'interesting'. I don't think we will ever get just a straight out truthful good biography movie on Beethoven let alone anyone else.

I guess you are right about Hollywood Joy,
which seems to have an ingrained anti European bias and its portayals in particular of Britian are ludicrous and wildly inaccurate like the film, Patriots, about the Americal war of independence showing British troops committing war crimes which struck me as being not only offensive but also libellous, goodness knows what it would make of Beethoven, which Hollywood only seems to associate with a dog.



[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited October 05, 2003).]

[Amalie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
[B] I enjoyed it less. Gardiner's heavy-handed direction of the music was apparent from the start. But at least they used a real period instrument band as opposed to some Vienna Symphony Orchestra overdub.

However I was not expecting Beethoven's manner of conducting to be that of just sitting in a chair and doing nothing for most of the music.

I agree with you Rod, I did make this observation myself, and I am sure it is completely unhistorical.
This was revolutionary music for its time with bold and unheard of tempi and shifts of key-it is inconceivable surely that the maestro would not have conducted this great work of futurity himself and just lounged around idly watching and listening as the musicians performed. But thats the new look fact free, couldn't care less BBC for you.

My understanding about conducting, is that before Beethoven, basically the first musicians led from the keyboard the rest of the ensemble, though this would prove a bit difficult at times as a large orchestra would drown out the pianoforte.
Chrisopher Hogwood claims that Symphonies were still led from the keyboard during most of Beethoven's time.
Not until Mendelssohn's time that conducting became more of an independent function in its own right.
I believe Handel conducted the Fireworks music but not continuo. Please correct me if I am wrong as I am interested.
I am not sure wether Mozart would have conducted, but Beethoven we know conducted his own.





[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited October 05, 2003).]

[bernardc]

I think you're all being a bit harsh. I really enjoyed the dramatisation. It was an unusual way of presenting classical music and the symphony was performed with gusto by the period orchestra - the expressions on the musicians' faces were a delight!

The breaks between the movements allowed some of the historical context in and presented some of Beethoven's relationships in a more-or-less factual way.

I didn't mind Ian Hart's understated performance or his amateurish conducting! In this regard, why shouldn't the composer occasionally sit still and listen to his music? It was a private performance 200 years ago, not a modern concert experience.

The "coda" at the end with Haydn turning up to comment on the symphony was dramatically satisfying and Frank Findlay was a pleasure to watch.

Finally I rather liked all the close-ups and dizzying camera angles. The facial expressions of individuals as a piece of music progresses is always fascinating.

To summarise, the programme made it clear why the Eroica Symphony is a turning point in musical history and, with some ingenuity, included a performance the work at the same time. Give the BBC a break!

[This message has been edited by bernardc (edited October 05, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by bernardc:
I think you're all being a bit harsh. I really enjoyed the dramatisation. It was an unusual way of presenting classical music and the symphony was performed with gusto by the period orchestra - the expressions on the musicians' faces were a delight!

The breaks between the movements allowed some of the historical context in and presented some of Beethoven's relationships in a more-or-less factual way.

I didn't mind Ian Hart's understated performance or his amateurish conducting! In this regard, why shouldn't the composer occasionally sit still and listen to his music? It was a private performance 200 years ago, not a modern concert experience.

The "coda" at the end with Haydn turning up to comment on the symphony was dramatically satisfying and Frank Findlay was a pleasure to watch.

Finally I rather liked all the close-ups and dizzying camera angles. The facial expressions of individuals as a piece of music progresses is always fascinating.

To summarise, the programme made it clear why the Eroica Symphony is a turning point in musical history and, with some ingenuity, included a performance the work at the same time. Give the BBC a break!

Nice to hear from you again Bernard!

I just feel that a documentary setting out the facts, followed by a performance would have been more illuminating. To quote Gurn "That's my opinion, I may be wrong!"

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Michael]

My reaction was initially the same as Peter’s: Hmmmmmm (although maybe pitched a semitone higher). However, I watched the whole thing again last night and was quite taken with it. Of course, it isn’t perfect – what is (apart from the Eroica itself)? Let’s face it, any semi-fictional depiction of B and his life is not going to satisfy any of us, but what we have here is something rather new – a drama in which the principle character is the music itself.
Okay, most of the dialogue was lifted from other occasions in B’s life, and the introduction of Haydn and the self-coronation of Napoleon were all too neat, but nobody argued with Shakespeare when he condensed the events of “Julius Caesar” into a few days.
Ian Hart was rather underwhelming as B but he could so easily have gone the other way and chewed the scenery instead of Ries! I thought Tim Pigott-Smith was terrific and also Frank Finlay as Haydn. Papa H arrived for the last movement only and he should have looked more puzzled when he heard the plink-plonk of the “theme” which followed the opening flourish. But he should have been astounded when he heard the real tune emerge after a few variations because it was a golden oldie - a top ten hit in Vienna a year or two before when “The Creatures of Prometheus” had a very successful run. Haydn certainly knew that tune because he had a run-in with Beethoven over the ballet.
(A nice touch was having the copyist, Sukowaty, give a jump at one of the orchestral outbursts – but he should have read it in advance).
Eroica” never claimed to be an actual reconstruction of that first performance. If it did, we would have to revise all our ideas about musical standards in B’s time. What an orchestra! After one false start, a perfect run-through (except for that idiot with the horn who couldn’t count. I wonder why Mahler never corrected that!)
I don't know how many people watched the drama, but if it converted even one person it would have been worth it. I’ve been listening to the symphony over and over for the past couple of days (and I hardly ever listened to it before, except once a fortnight).

Michael



[This message has been edited by Michael (edited October 06, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Michael:
My reaction was initially the same as Peter’s: Hmmmmmm (although maybe pitched a semitone higher). However, I watched the whole thing again last night and was quite taken with it. Of course, it isn’t perfect – what is (apart from the Eroica itself)? Let’s face it, any semi-fictional depiction of B and his life is not going to satisfy any of us, but what we have here is something rather new – a drama in which the principle character is the music itself.
Okay, most of the dialogue was lifted from other occasions in B’s life, and the introduction of Haydn and the self-coronation of Napoleon were all too neat, but nobody argued with Shakespeare when he condensed the events of “Julius Caesar” into a few days.
Ian Hart was rather underwhelming as B but he could so easily have gone the other way and chewed the scenery instead of Ries! I thought Tim Pigott-Smith was terrific and also Frank Finlay as Haydn. Papa H arrived for the last movement only and he should have looked more puzzled when he heard the plink-plonk of the “theme” which followed the opening flourish. But he should have been astounded when he heard the real tune emerge after a few variations because it was a golden oldie - a top ten hit in Vienna a year or two before when “The Creatures of Prometheus” had a very successful run. Haydn certainly knew that tune because he had a run-in with Beethoven over the ballet.
(A nice touch was having the copyist, Sukowaty, give a jump at one of the orchestral outbursts – but he should have read it in advance).
Eroica” never claimed to be an actual reconstruction of that first performance. If it did, we would have to revise all our ideas about musical standards in B’s time. What an orchestra! After one false start, a perfect run-through (except for that idiot with the horn who couldn’t count. I wonder why Mahler never corrected that!)
I don't know how many people watched the drama, but if it converted even one person it would have been worth it. I’ve been listening to the symphony over and over for the past couple of days (and I hardly ever listened to it before, except once a fortnight).

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited October 06, 2003).]

Yes Michael some interesting points - I agree that this wasn't bad unlike Immortal beloved and I also recorded it for posterity! It just seemed rather irrelevant and at times (such as those irritating children) a distraction to the music. Tim Piggot-Smith may have been ok, but from what I can make out Dietrichstein wasn't in fact hostile to Beethoven's music, quite the contrary. The drama gave us the specific date of June 9th 1804 which is the earliest known try out of this symphony which would have been in the nature of a rehearsal rather than a performance - after this occasion the symphony had a few more private performances before its public airing at the Theater an der Wien on April 7th 1805. During this time Beethoven made several small changes to the score.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited October 06, 2003).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Amalie:
I guess you are right about Hollywood Joy,
which seems to have an ingrained anti European bias and its portayals in particular of Britian are ludicrous and wildly inaccurate like the film, Patriots, about the Americal war of independence showing British troops committing war crimes which struck me as being not only offensive but also libellous, goodness knows what it would make of Beethoven, which Hollywood only seems to associate with a dog.

[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited October 05, 2003).]

We already know what it made of Beethoven with 'Immortal Beloved'!



------------------
'Truth and beauty joined'

[Tony John Hearne]

Originally posted by bernardc:
I think you're all being a bit harsh. I really enjoyed the dramatisation. It was an unusual way of presenting classical music and the symphony was performed with gusto by the period orchestra - the expressions on the musicians' faces were a delight!

The breaks between the movements allowed some of the historical context in and presented some of Beethoven's relationships in a more-or-less factual way.

I didn't mind Ian Hart's understated performance or his amateurish conducting! In this regard, why shouldn't the composer occasionally sit still and listen to his music? It was a private performance 200 years ago, not a modern concert experience.

The "coda" at the end with Haydn turning up to comment on the symphony was dramatically satisfying and Frank Findlay was a pleasure to watch.

Finally I rather liked all the close-ups and dizzying camera angles. The facial expressions of individuals as a piece of music progresses is always fascinating.

To summarise, the programme made it clear why the Eroica Symphony is a turning point in musical history and, with some ingenuity, included a performance the work at the same time. Give the BBC a break!

[This message has been edited by bernardc (edited October 05, 2003).]

I am new to this site hence a somewhat delayed response. I totally agree with bernardc. I have seen "Eroica" twice now and am still intoxicated with it. The expression on the face of the conservative Count as he struggled not to be overcome by the newness and sheer intensity of Marcia Funebre has stayed with me. The symphony Eroica came into my musical life over thirty years ago and is sometimes there on a daily basis. The memory of that particular movement being conducted following the murder of Isaeli athletes at the 1972 Olympics still resonates. Therefore I approached the film with extreme caution. The BBC did not let me down.

[ancsika]

Originally posted by Amalie:
Michael,
I am interested to know whether you or anyone else managed to see this live broadcast of Beethoven's Eroica, and whether the drama and the muscic combined well, and true to fact. I understand the Shakespearean actor, Tim Piggot-Smith was in it.
Music by the Orchestre Revolutionaire et Romantique. It would also have been nice to have had it simultaneously broadcasted on the radio.

I have seen the play and I thought it was very good. Well written and well played in both sense of the word.