Eroica - The Movie

[Amalie]

Thankyou Michael,

I will certainly be looking out for the BBC magazine. Hopefully it will also be out on DVD.

[Michael]

According to the BBC Music magazine, the programme, which I think will be called "Eroica" will be broadcast on 4th October at 9pm on BBC 2.
It focuses on that day in the life of Beethoven in June, 1804 when the third symphony was first performed privately in Prince Lobkowitz's palace. The complete symphony will be played as part of the 90 minute drama, with a soundtrack by John Eliot Gardiner's Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique.
B is played by Ian Hart (who looks more like Dudley Moore in the accompanying photo) and Jack Davenport plays Prince Lobkowitz with a limp.
The article points out that "scholars should not expect a slavish adherence to facts."
(That sentence alone should set off warning bells!) There is to be a poignant scene between Beethoven and Josephine von Brunsvik (sic) in which she rejects his offer of marriage.
I have a horrible feeling that we are going to get a touch of the "Immortal Beloveds" all over again.
However, all will be revealed on Oct 4th! Hope for the best.

Michael

[Peter]

Originally posted by Michael:
According to the BBC Music magazine, the programme, which I think will be called "Eroica" will be broadcast on 4th October at 9pm on BBC 2.
It focuses on that day in the life of Beethoven in June, 1804 when the third symphony was first performed privately in Prince Lobkowitz's palace. The complete symphony will be played as part of the 90 minute drama, with a soundtrack by John Eliot Gardiner's Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique.
B is played by Ian Hart (who looks more like Dudley Moore in the accompanying photo) and Jack Davenport plays Prince Lobkowitz with a limp.
The article points out that "scholars should not expect a slavish adherence to facts."
(That sentence alone should set off warning bells!) There is to be a poignant scene between Beethoven and Josephine von Brunsvik (sic) in which she rejects his offer of marriage.
I have a horrible feeling that we are going to get a touch of the "Immortal Beloveds" all over again.
However, all will be revealed on Oct 4th! Hope for the best.

Michael

Why are the facts so abhorrent to film makers and what is the point in bothering with this if it is a fabrication? There seems to be nothing for it but we'll have to set up a fund and hire our own cast, scriptwriters and directors from amongst forum members - Beethoven deserves better than this! Still I'll be watching on Oct 4th and will reserve judgement!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Whoever does watch this program on Oct. 4th let us all know what you thought! I don't know why movie makers can't come up with a thoroughly authentic version of a Beethoven movie, with all the books and facts out there on him it can't be all that difficult! They always think they have to inject more 'interesting' facts into a movie or it will lose people's interest. I think people's lives are interesting the way they are and you don't have to 'change' it. Hollywood always thinks they can do better and improve lives. I agree what's the point if it doesn't contain enough facts. We'll wait and see if this movie proves our point or not. Several years ago I had heard of an authentic movie someone in Hollywood was actually considering making, now you hear no more about it. I guess it didn't go any further than the thought process.


------------------
'Truth and beauty joined'

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Peter:
Why are the facts so abhorrent to film makers and what is the point in bothering with this if it is a fabrication? There seems to be nothing for it but we'll have to set up a fund and hire our own cast, scriptwriters and directors from amongst forum members - Beethoven deserves better than this! Still I'll be watching on Oct 4th and will reserve judgement!

Surely we should all now be aware in the UK of the dreadful abysmal depths that television has decended to. Of course the facts about Beethoven's life, apart from his deafness will be either ignored or prettified, because any notion of objective truth is utterly abhorrent to the liberal elite that runs the media and government in this country. For goodness sake, and without getting political one only has to have take the merest glance at the proceedings of the Hutton enquiry to realize that facts and objectivity have long since been jettisoned in favour of spin and dellusion. It is very sad that we simply cannot get unvarnished facts about life, history and great people, without some corrupt mediating influence trying to impose its own bizzare agenda, and impose their own views about great people. I have to state that in fact we got rid of the TV, about 15 years ago, not that we watched it that much, but when we occasionaly did we got fed up being offended by it, and now I understand it has even got far worse than that. The media and society in Britain just cannot seem to cope with complex or even straight forward facts and we seen to be marching inexorably towards 'Huxley's Brave New World' where everything challenging has been banned, even ordinary facts of life and instead people are fed warm comfortable non challenging lies and base gratification. What would Ludwig say!!!
But by all means see what it is like, and if it is positive no doubt post your views.

********


[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited September 10, 2003).]

[mrfixit]

I hate it when people call the media liberal. The media proved itself with the war on Iraq as a media lapdog with the BBC being the worst of all. I hate it the way reporters act like they have short term memorys and cant rember simple things in the past. Like the fact the west backed saddam up untill the gulf war dispiting him commiting some of his worse crimes at the time like gassing the kurds. Anyway i wont get into that as my main point is this. The reason that education is in such a bad state and things are dumbed down, is becuase those in power want them to be. If people were better educated about things, they might question things more and not acept things the way they are. People are instead turned into passive consumers. Even music has been turned into something people consume in a passive manner, not something they take part i and create. Anyway i am going on about something that is off topic, but i will say the BBC never provide me with anything i like watching or listening too, and i cant watch the BBC news anymore cuase of all the bullcrap on it. Sorry if i went off topic.

[Amalie]

Alex,
I really don't want to go off topic, and certainly not to discuss recent events, which are of course the subject of the Hutton enquiry. But I have to say that apart, it is surely incontestable that the British Media is profoundly liberal and anti-conservative in the sense that like the government it rubbishes everything about Britians past, indeed about anyone 'great' in the past whoever they were, but particularly if they were the dreaded liberal bete noire of the dead white, especially great European male including I have no doubt Beethoven, who the BBC probably think was some sort of early Nazi being, (a) German. (b) forceful.
(c) a great genius.
I am exaggerating obviously to try to make a point. This is that the media in Britian is pursuing its own agenda whether at the behest of government or whoever, and that it is trying to manipulate our view of the past for its own purpose. It is also incredibly dumb and ignorant and you can be pretty well assured that even such facts as the BBC can force itself to muster on Beethoven's life will probably be wrong or twisted in some way. Certainly I can never imagine anyone learning anything from the media in Britian. But there again what can you expect from a country given up to worshipping bogus celebrities, footballers, and trash culture.

[dawncejames]

Originally posted by Amalie:
Alex,
I really don't want to go off topic, and certainly not to discuss recent events, which are of course the subject of the Hutton enquiry. But I have to say that apart, it is surely incontestable that the British Media is profoundly liberal and anti-conservative in the sense that like the government it rubbishes everything about Britians past, indeed about anyone 'great' in the past whoever they were, but particularly if they were the dreaded liberal bete noire of the dead white, especially great European male including I have no doubt Beethoven, who the BBC probably think was some sort of early Nazi being, (a) German. (b) forceful.
(c) a great genius.
I am exaggerating obviously to try to make a point. This is that the media in Britian is pursuing its own agenda whether at the behest of government or whoever, and that it is trying to manipulate our view of the past for its own purpose. It is also incredibly dumb and ignorant and you can be pretty well assured that even such facts as the BBC can force itself to muster on Beethoven's life will probably be wrong or twisted in some way. Certainly I can never imagine anyone learning anything from the media in Britian. But there again what can you expect from a country given up to worshipping bogus celebrities, footballers, and trash culture.


Amalie, rest of members,

I thought Beethoven was of French decent, with a swarthy complexion. However, if his portraits are a true reflexion, he certainly looks a furious little man!

The reason the 'politically correct' brigade shy away from the 'Dead White Males' is that they want to be seen as 'right-on, ok' guys by the public. This rather 'cheap' way of dealing with racism has always infuriated me. I much rather the time and effort be spent in tackling the real causes of racism. People should tell the truth about people - dead or otherwise, and whatever shade they may be, warts and all. But it seems the West likes it's history 'sugar-coated'.

Beethoven did not seem to be affected by racism of his day by composing for George Bridgetower, although I have never heard the music. B was also a follower of Nepolean (until he upset B by acting like a typical dictator), who was once married to Josephine who was partially of African ancestory if I remember correctly (similar to Queen Charlotte, the ancestor of our present day Queen of UK, Allesandro dei Medici, Duke of Florence whose mother Anna was of African decent).

I can also mention Mary Seacole, the Caribbean Doctoress who nursed on the front line of the Crimean War, Simon Aldridge the black actor in 1800s England, Pushkin whose maternal Grandfather was Abraham Petrovich Hinnibal of African decent. I could go on but it is time for bed!

------------------


[This message has been edited by dawncejames (edited September 16, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by dawncejames (edited September 16, 2003).]

[aloysia]

Originally posted by Peter:
Why are the facts so abhorrent to film makers and what is the point in bothering with this if it is a fabrication? There seems to be nothing for it but we'll have to set up a fund and hire our own cast, scriptwriters and directors from amongst forum members - Beethoven deserves better than this! Still I'll be watching on Oct 4th and will reserve judgement!

Did you know the BBC has an "EROICA" page? You can see little clips from the film at http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/classicaltv/eroica/film/.

[Amalie]

Originally posted by dawncejames:

I was only making the specific point about the British media, which can be relied on I think in the film about Beethoven to filter all the facts about his life through their own liberal spectacles and deliver us a Beethoven for our times, whatever that may mean. As far as I am aware there are no racist facts about Beethoven, but that was not really the point I was making, which is that the media is uncomfortable with any hisorical facts and has to distort them to suit its own agenda. History is simply, too vast and threatening for the moulders of our society.
Of course we do want to know the truth, but lets be honest about this, if inconvenient facts about Beethoven came to light, ie. that he may have had racist views, which is of course is nonesense, would the liberal media not suppress this? As you say we should see people warts and all, and don't forget that was first used in connection with Cromwell, who was a mass of contradictions to say the least.

[Peter]

Originally posted by aloysia:
Did you know the BBC has an "EROICA" page? You can see little clips from the film at http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/classicaltv/eroica/film/

Thanks for that Aloysia.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Michael]

I see from this week's Radio Times that the "Eroica" film, which is on next Saturday evening on BBC 2 from 9.15 to 10.40, is followed immediately on BBC Four by two programmes dealing with Beethoven.
At 10.40 "B's life and music are explored by conductor Nikolaus Harnoncourt". And at 11.40 we have "Beethoven violin sonatas from the Barbicon with Augustin Dumay and Maria Joao Pires performing numbers 1, 9 and 10.
So it's Beethoven all the way, folks, from 9.15 next Saturday to 1.20 Sunday morning.

Michael

[heidi]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Michael:
I see from this week's Radio Times that the "Eroica" film, which is on next Saturday evening on BBC 2 from 9.15 to 10.40, is followed immediately on BBC Four by two programmes dealing with Beethoven.
At 10.40 "B's life and music are explored by conductor Nikolaus Harnoncourt". And at 11.40 we have "Beethoven violin sonatas from the Barbicon with Augustin Dumay and Maria Joao Pires performing numbers 1, 9 and 10.
So it's Beethoven all the way, folks, from 9.15 next Saturday to 1.20 Sunday morning.

Michael[/QUOTE

Anyway someone can record this for us here in the States? I would really love to see it. I have checked up on it's website and am very interested in seeing it. Thanks.

Heidi

[Peter]

Hmm what can I say? Neither one thing nor the other is my impression. The whole symphony was performed and I very much enjoyed this aspect. In between movements Beethoven proposed to Josephine Von Deym (and was turned down flat). Both Lobkowitz and Ries were portrayed as whimps, whilst Lobkowitz's wife was clearly on something with a perpetual grin. The actors could be put into one of two camps, the smilers and the scowlers, so throughout the performance we were in no doubt who was enjoying the performance and who was not. The orchestra bungled the opening bars of the symphony and sounded like your local school orchestra, so Beethoven gave them a talking to - more power was needed - they began again and were miraculously transformed into a first class orchestra and were only stopped again after the famous Ries faux pas on the entry of the horns in the recapitulation which left Beethoven in a rage. Slight reference to Beethoven's bad stomach and ears then enter decrepit old papa Haydn just in time for the last movement - after Beethoven's introducing his pupil Ries as an idiot, Haydn sarcastically retorted 'all pupils are idiots'. On with the music and then a load of kids start pointlessly and irritatingly running round the room, clearly the music has impressed Haydn but he is also very troubled by it -'loud but new' seems to be the verdict. The footman's more impressed by the maid and a nervous Ries tells Beethoven Bonaparte's made himself Emperor.

So I think they'd have done better with a documentary introduction followed by the performance, the drama was confusing and silly - aside from some factual errors the context of events was never properly established.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Amalie]

Thankyou for commentary Peter, but I rather suspected this would be case .
The BBC have a problem nowadays as many have noticed about great European cultural figures of the past. I didn't see the performance as I don't have a TV, but it is the same old stuff time and time again.
Some minor researcher at the BBC comes up with a few distorted facts about Beethoven, couldn't care less whether it is checked or not, controller thinks it would be a good idea to keep in with the few intelligent remaining viewers of British TV, then serves up some ridiculous farrago of nonesense just to prove it still remembers the name of the greatest of all composers. To be fair, I suppose it is very difficult to find an exceptional actor who could play Ludwig, and to get the balance between the life and the work right.
But surely the rendition you have just seen, would be laughable if not insulting, to Beethoven's memory with this ridiculous light weight cast of non entities, with the exception of Frank Findlay of course, who is an exellent actor, Pigot-Smith, in my opinion is awful, I saw him in the most dreadful performance of Julius Caesar at Stratford, with his sidekick Greg Hicks,
which was sadly the worst production of any play I have ever seen.

The lead part of Beethoven was absurdly miscast and from the excerpts I saw on the internet was pathetic and incoherent, and used totally inaproppriate language in my view.
I agree with you that there could have been a documentary introduction, and I am sure that the orchestra were quite authentic.
Glad I didn't miss much!!!




[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited October 05, 2003).]