DNA results - So Near, Yet so Far

[Frohlich]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think it is more than the genes - the environment, the historical context, many factors plus of course genius. I personally think the idea of a cloned human is ghastly, regardless of who it is.

I am in full agreement with Peter, there are obviously many more factors than genes.
The question I would like to ask (in my naivety) regarding DNA and genes is that, would not Beethoven's brothers carry the same genetic coding & Deoxyribonucleic acids, and if Beethoven fathered a child, his genetic coding obviously would have passed on to that child, but would this neccessarily mean that his child would have that certain magic ingredient that would turn him into a genius?

What I find positively distasteful is that the research team said that the DNA analysis might answer lingering questions about Beethoven's ethnicity, as he had a very dark complexion.
I couldn't give one iota for their findings, they will never be as important and meaningful to us as the power of his music and the beauty of his feelings.

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Take Sir Isaac Newton for instance, one of the greatest scientists and mathematicians that ever lived, was a bit like Beethoven in that he never married or produced children and on his death his considerable fortune which he acquired legitimately as master of the mint, was dispersed amongst his relatives. His nearest relative was a second cousin or nephew who was a ne'r do well and drunkard who died in a ditch, and as one of Newton's biographers was a poor representative for such a great person.
So it would seem that the magic 'X factor' that Sir Isaac Newton and Beethoven possessed in their genes was not passed on.

Amalie.



[This message has been edited by Frohlich (edited November 20, 2003).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Frohlich:
I am in full agreement with Peter, there are obviously many more factors than genes.
The question I would like to ask (in my naivety) regarding DNA and genes is that, would not Beethoven's brothers carry the same genetic coding & Deoxyribonucleic acids, and if Beethoven fathered a child, his genetic coding obviously would have passed on to that child, but would this neccessarily mean that his child would have that certain magic ingredient that would turn him into a genius?

What I find positively distasteful is that the research team said that the DNA analysis might answer lingering questions about Beethoven's ethnicity, as he had a very dark complexion.
I couldn't give one iota for their findings, they will never be as important and meaningful to us as the power of his music and the beauty of his feelings.

****

Take Sir Isaac Newton for instance, one of the greatest scientists and mathematicians that ever lived, was a bit like Beethoven in that he never married or produced children and on his death his considerable fortune which he acquired legitimately as master of the mint, was dispersed amongst his relatives. His nearest relative was a second cousin or nephew who was a ne'r do well and drunkard who died in a ditch, and as one of Newton's biographers was a poor representative for such a great person.
So it would seem that the magic 'X factor' that Sir Isaac Newton and Beethoven possessed in their genes was not passed on.

Amalie.

[This message has been edited by Frohlich (edited November 20, 2003).]

A near relative or a child doesn't have the same genetic makeup as the original person. Similar in many ways, dissimilar in others, because both parents and all their ancestors contribute varying amounts of recessive and dominant traits. And also there are mutations which produce new genes, mutations which have gradually turned fish into brightly colored parrots, polar bears and human beings.

If environment were the important factor in genius, we would have more geniuses than could be appreciated. There may possibly have been someone among Beethoven's contemporaries who, having the genetic makeup for greatness as an artist, had the wrong environment and didn't realize this potential. But I doubt that there was anyone who lacked the genetic components but had the "right" environment who produced work of genius. Haydn? Mozart? Not likely.

One's personal reservations (or lack of them) about cloning a human being are not pertinent, since the issue is not about whether it *should* happen, but whether it *will* happen. In view of the scientific ingenuity of the past 100 years, the extreme rarity of artistic genius, and the tendency of people to be obsessed with achieving various things, I think it will most likely happen in this century and there is no way to stop it. Save digging up the remains of every genius and putting them out of reach. Whether it will work I don't know, but I think it will certainly be attempted, probably in secret.


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited November 20, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
A near relative or a child doesn't have the same genetic makeup as the original person. Similar in many ways, dissimilar in others, because both parents and all their ancestors contribute varying amounts of recessive and dominant traits. And also there are mutations which produce new genes, mutations which have gradually turned fish into brightly colored parrots, polar bears and human beings.

If environment were the important factor in genius, we would have more geniuses than could be appreciated. There may possibly have been someone among Beethoven's contemporaries who, having the genetic makeup for greatness as an artist, had the wrong environment and didn't realize this potential. But I doubt that there was anyone who lacked the genetic components but had the "right" environment who produced work of genius. Haydn? Mozart? Not likely.

One's personal reservations (or lack of them) about cloning a human being are not pertinent, since the issue is not about whether it *should* happen, but whether it *will* happen. In view of the scientific ingenuity of the past 100 years, the extreme rarity of artistic genius, and the tendency of people to be obsessed with achieving various things, I think it will most likely happen in this century and there is no way to stop it. Save digging up the remains of every genius and putting them out of reach. Whether it will work I don't know, but I think it will certainly be attempted, probably in secret.


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited November 20, 2003).]

Well the environment certainly does play a part - what if he'd been born in China in 1770? Genius alone is not enough - the right set of circumstances produced the music of Beethoven (enviromental, social, historical, musical) and these can never be recreated faithfully - this is why it's such a miracle that it ever happened. They probably will clone people in the future but they are only reproducing the physical body not the spirit that was the original person.

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

I don't know a whole lot about the process of cloning but I do think it would be difficult to clone someone's talent, creativity, and imagination. Like Peter said they will be cloning the physical part not the heart and soul. I wonder about the personality from what I've read that's suppose to be exact as well as the physical part. Lots of questions but this is just the beginning of a new scientific frontier once again and I'm sure they're not even aware of some of the consequences. Cloning undesirables, perhaps? It reminds me of Frankenstein's laboratory!

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well the environment certainly does play a part - what if he'd been born in China in 1770? Genius alone is not enough - the right set of circumstances produced the music of Beethoven (enviromental, social, historical, musical) and these can never be recreated faithfully - this is why it's such a miracle that it ever happened. They probably will clone people in the future but they are only reproducing the physical body not the spirit that was the original person.

Certainly a German child born in China in 1770 would have faced enormous difficulties in this regard. But I think Beethoven born anytime between say 1400 and 1900 in Europe into any reasonably stable environment where he could listen to music, would have most likely written great music no matter what the circumstances. The 20th century would present some difficulties, but I still think he would have produced great music of some sort... Not really being a religious person, I think the spiritual and creative as well as the physical potential of a person is in the genes. Of course no one can prove this one way or the other, but we all have our personal opinions.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited November 20, 2003).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Beethoven's genius was almost certainly due to his genes, not his life experiences. Many many people must have had similar or equivalent life experiences without producing great music. Were his genetics recreated, everything needed would be there. Give him a better life growing up, and his new music would still be great. Or shall I say, will be great.


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited November 19, 2003).]

But would different experiences change his interest in music? Perhaps he might be sidetracked by something trivial or he might pursue a different type of art. Who knows?