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DNA results - So Near, Yet so Far

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    DNA results - So Near, Yet so Far

    My highly placed sources have recently informed me of matters regarding Beethoven's skull fragments.

    Source (1)

    Beethoven's skull fragments are very substantial, and include very many large well preserved pieces. I once examined them (on the desk in my office) and was able to determine that they closely resembled the drawings of Beethoven's skull fragments recovered from his exhumed gravesite in the late 1800's in Vienna.
    Unfortunately I am unable to provide you with much information at the request of the owner of these relics.
    He is a highly intelligent cautious person who wishes to verify authenticity by current scientific research amongst others DNA analysis, prior to any public disclosure.
    Of course we have a very large sample of well preserved hairs that were purchased at Sotheby's auction that were chemically analyzed using synchroton X-Rays and other nano-analysis methods. The tests indicated severe lead poisoning which apparently afflicted Beethoven (based on his medical history and review of symtoms).
    I am certain that the bone relics and the Sotheby hair sample are authentic, but cannot identify the owner at this stage, or comment on any bone testing until permission is granted. I gave my word and I will keep it.
    I believe him to be a completely honourable person, and respect his wishes.
    We hope to continue testing of the hair after the DNA issue is definitively resolved. We would like to determine the distribution of the lead along the shafts and cross-sections of Beethoven's hair to gain further information about the amount of exposure in the last few months. The longest hairs correspond to about 9 months growth.

    ********


    Source (2).

    I am sorry that there are no photographs of the skull fragments yet avaliable, and everything related to their study is unfortunately kept close to the vest.

    The owner of the skull fragments is someone who is terrified of publicity and who also believes that he should be compensated for any information that comes from the fragments. The owner agreed in the end that a small piece of bone could be studied by the same scientists who had studied the hair. Although the results obtained will remain a closely gaurded secret, until such time as the owner agrees to allow them to be made public.
    I can tell you obliquely that nothing the scientists found in examining the bone made them doubt their findings in the hair, and that nothing in the examinations made them doubt that both hair and bone actually were the remains of Beethoven.
    The scientists still hope to make public in the near future the findings of their comparisons of hair and bone, as well as their detailed examination of the trace-metals content of the bone itself, but all this depends on the willingness of the owner.

    *******


    In a letter to his brother's 1802, Beethoven wrote: "As soon as I am dead, if Dr. Schmidt is still alive, ask him to discover my disease...so at least as much as possible the world may be reconciled to me after my death".

    Dear Beethoven, perhaps he would have never understood that part of his mortal remains would have ended up on a physicians table in the USA.

    Amalie.



    [This message has been edited by Frohlich (edited November 16, 2003).]

    #2
    Interesting articles - I don't see why the 'owner' of these remains is allowed to prevent scientific investigation. Interesting that no photos are available - photos were taken at both exhumations in 1863 and 1888 - what became of these?

    ------------------
    'Man know thyself'
    'Man know thyself'

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Peter:
      Interesting articles - I don't see why the 'owner' of these remains is allowed to prevent scientific investigation. Interesting that no photos are available - photos were taken at both exhumations in 1863 and 1888 - what became of these?


      Peter,
      I share your concerns, and agree that scientific investigations should not be prevented. There are existing photographs of the bones but everything is kept closely gaurded at present.
      I don't know if you would agree, but personally I am not keen on the idea of Beethoven's skull being interfered with.
      If however, it is now accepted they are in the public domain, should not the public know what is going on with this important research? I really cannot even hazard a guess as to what the Austro-Hungarian law is or was either in Beethoven's time or today, and who is entitled to ownership of a dead persons remains.
      It all sounds suspicious to me, how persons unknown come into possession and custody of Beethoven's remains, we are not just talking about anybody here. I am sure most of us feel uncomfortable with the whole idea of a sort of macabre traffic in human remains, let alone someone as great as Beethoven. I have very mixed feelings about the whole project, but by the same token we do want to learn more about Beethoven who belongs to the order of great genius.


      Amalie.




      [This message has been edited by Frohlich (edited November 16, 2003).]

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Frohlich:

        Peter,
        I share your concerns, and agree that scientific investigations should not be prevented. There are existing photographs of the bones but everything is kept closely gaurded at present.
        I don't know if you would agree, but personally I am not keen on the idea of Beethoven's skull being interfered with.
        If however, it is now accepted they are in the public domain, should not the public know what is going on with this important research? I really cannot even hazard a guess as to what the Austro-Hungarian law is or was either in Beethoven's time or today, and who is entitled to ownership of a dead persons remains.
        It all sounds suspicious to me, how persons unknown come into possession and custody of Beethoven's remains, we are not just talking about anybody here. I am sure most of us feel uncomfortable with the whole idea of a sort of macabre traffic in human remains, let alone someone as great as Beethoven. I have very mixed feelings about the whole project, but by the same token we do want to learn more about Beethoven who belongs to the order of great genius.


        Amalie.


        [This message has been edited by Frohlich (edited November 16, 2003).]
        I share your sentiments entirely - quite frankly they should have left him and Schubert where they were in the Wahring cemetery. However there have been two exhumations and nothing can alter that (unless they dig him up again and make it three!) - but I wonder what are they really going to discover that is so earth shattering? Nothing that alters Beethoven's legacy to the world that's for sure. So why this secrecy?

        ------------------
        'Man know thyself'
        'Man know thyself'

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Frohlich:

          There are existing photographs of the bones but everything is kept closely gaurded at present.
          I don't know if you would agree, but personally I am not keen on the idea of Beethoven's skull being interfered with.
          If however, it is now accepted they are in the public domain, should not the public know what is going on with this important research? I really cannot even hazard a guess as to what the Austro-Hungarian law is or was either in Beethoven's time or today, and who is entitled to ownership of a dead persons remains.
          It all sounds suspicious to me, how persons unknown come into possession and custody of Beethoven's remains, we are not just talking about anybody here. I am sure most of us feel uncomfortable with the whole idea of a sort of macabre traffic in human remains, let alone someone as great as Beethoven. I have very mixed feelings about the whole project, but by the same token we do want to learn more about Beethoven who belongs to the order of great genius.

          Amalie.

          [This message has been edited by Frohlich (edited November 16, 2003).]
          Very interesting article. I totally agree! What's with all the secrecy?? I don't think I like the idea of them (whoever they are) messing around with B's skull or anyone else's for that matter. Amalie, where did you get this article, did you mention the source? Where in America is this going on. I must confess this is the first I've heard about it although if it's shrouded in secrecy then I'm not surprised. Pictures would be interesting to say the least, it might be a source of proof for a start. I don't like that a private person 'owns' these skull pieces either, I mean how do you get to be an 'owner' of pieces of B's skull in the first place? The whole thing does sound rather suspicious to me also. We shall have to wait until further developments are brought to light.

          ------------------
          'Truth and beauty joined'

          [This message has been edited by Joy (edited November 17, 2003).]
          'Truth and beauty joined'

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Joy:
            Very interesting article. I totally agree! What's with all the secrecy?? I don't think I like the idea of them (whoever they are) messing around with B's skull or anyone else's for that matter. Amalie, where did you get this article, did you mention the source? Where in America is this going on. I must confess this is the first I've heard about it although if it's shrouded in secrecy then I'm not surprised. Pictures would be interesting to say the least, it might be a source of proof for a start. I don't like that a private person 'owns' these skull pieces either, I mean how do you get to be an 'owner' of pieces of B's skull in the first place? The whole thing does sound rather suspicious to me also. We shall have to wait until further developments are brought to light.


            Source (3)


            Unfortunately we are not able to assist you.
            The testing that was done and mentioned in print has never been published (unfortunately), and the current owners have had us sign a confidentiality agreement about the skull fragments. We are not allowed to discuss them in any way.


            Yours Sincerely,
            Bill Meridith PhD, Director of
            the Ira Brilliant Center for Beethoven studies.
            San Jose State University
            California.




            [This message has been edited by Frohlich (edited November 17, 2003).]

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Frohlich:

              Source (3)


              Unfortunately we are not able to assist you.
              The testing that was done and mentioned in print has never been published (unfortunately), and the current owners have had us sign a confidentiality agreement about the skull fragments. We are not allowed to discuss them in any way.


              Yours Sincerely,
              Bill Meridith PhD, Director of
              the Ira Brilliant Center for Beethoven studies.
              San Jose State University
              California.


              [This message has been edited by Frohlich (edited November 17, 2003).]
              Totally absurd, but there's democracy for you! You'd think they were talking about a new weapons system!

              ------------------
              'Man know thyself'
              'Man know thyself'

              Comment


                #8
                In spite of demurrals by many scientists, I think there is a real possibility that people from the past can someday be recreated using DNA remains. I think this may be why there is such a guarded atmosphere around these fragments.
                See my paintings and sculptures at Saatchiart.com. In the search box, choose Artist and enter Charles Zigmund.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Chaszz:
                  In spite of demurrals by many scientists, I think there is a real possibility that people from the past can someday be recreated using DNA remains. I think this may be why there is such a guarded atmosphere around these fragments.
                  The whole situations seems so surreal.
                  What are they trying to do, create a new Jurassic Park image of our beloved Beethoven from his DNA?
                  Surely everything we know about Beethoven comes from his music. Hasn't he given the world enough with the most sublime music of all time, that we are not content with that we want to tamper with his mortal and indeed sacred remains aslo.

                  I agree with Peter, is this some sort of Los Alomos secret, and if so why?



                  [This message has been edited by Frohlich (edited November 18, 2003).]

                  Comment


                    #10
                    You know how those agencies work always being so secretive. Chaszz may be on to something about the DNA experiments. When they finally hit on something (which will probably be hundreds of years from now and we will all be gone), then they will all spring it on us poor unsuspecting folk.

                    ------------------
                    'Truth and beauty joined'
                    'Truth and beauty joined'

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Joy:
                      You know how those agencies work always being so secretive. Chaszz may be on to something about the DNA experiments. When they finally hit on something (which will probably be hundreds of years from now and we will all be gone), then they will all spring it on us poor unsuspecting folk.

                      I personally see nothing wrong with another nine symphonies by Beethoven cloned. And five more piano concertos, a few violin concertos, and who knows what else...
                      See my paintings and sculptures at Saatchiart.com. In the search box, choose Artist and enter Charles Zigmund.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Chaszz:
                        In spite of demurrals by many scientists, I think there is a real possibility that people from the past can someday be recreated using DNA remains. I think this may be why there is such a guarded atmosphere around these fragments.
                        One might try and recreate the dna structures in a person but the experiences of life from which the though processes flow cannot be recreated. There will be always only one Beethoven.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Chaszz:
                          I personally see nothing wrong with another nine symphonies by Beethoven cloned. And five more piano concertos, a few violin concertos, and who knows what else...
                          That would be wonderful but I'm afraid Sorrano is right, there's only one true Beethoven!!



                          ------------------
                          'Truth and beauty joined'
                          'Truth and beauty joined'

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Sorrano:
                            One might try and recreate the dna structures in a person but the experiences of life from which the though processes flow cannot be recreated. There will be always only one Beethoven.
                            Beethoven's genius was almost certainly due to his genes, not his life experiences. Many many people must have had similar or equivalent life experiences without producing great music. Were his genetics recreated, everything needed would be there. Give him a better life growing up, and his new music would still be great. Or shall I say, will be great.


                            [This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited November 19, 2003).]
                            See my paintings and sculptures at Saatchiart.com. In the search box, choose Artist and enter Charles Zigmund.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Chaszz:
                              Beethoven's genius was almost certainly due to his genes, not his life experiences. Many many people must have had similar or equivalent life experiences without producing great music. Were his genetics recreated, everything needed would be there. Give him a better life growing up, and his new music would still be great. Or shall I say, will be great.


                              [This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited November 19, 2003).]
                              I think it is more than the genes - the environment, the historical context, many factors plus of course genius. I personally think the idea of a cloned human is ghastly, regardless of who it is.

                              ------------------
                              'Man know thyself'
                              'Man know thyself'

                              Comment

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