Beethoven's influence on Romantic music

[Dan]

What effects do we think he had....

[Beyond Within]

I know he greatly expanded the symphonic form....

I dunno, I think a lot of the romantics misunderstood beethoven's intentions. The expanded form and emphasis on emotion was a means to his complete vision. A lot of romantic music is overly sentimental and loses sight of retaining coherance and logic within the structure. A lot of those guys would drone on and on without saying much...Not to say all romantic music is that way...but too much is.

[spaceray]

Can you give an example?

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Dan:
What effects do we think he had....

Dan,
My personal opinion is that in terms of form and particularly harmonic structure, he had little or no influence. On the other hand, he opened the door to those who would try to express emotion in their music. It seems to me that where B's music really severs the ties with Haydn and Mozart is not in the structural aspects at all, they have that in common right to the end. But his use of music to (NOT to express HIS emotions!!) provoke an emotional response from the listener is his greatest innovation.


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[This message has been edited by Gurn Blanston (edited November 15, 2003).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Dan,
My personal opinion is that in terms of form and particularly harmonic structure, he had little or no influence. On the other hand, he opened the door to those who would try to express emotion in their music. It seems to me that where B's music really severs the ties with Haydn and Mozart is not in the structural aspects at all, they have that in common right to the end. But his use of music to (NOT to express HIS emotions!!) provoke an emotional response from the listener is his greatest innovation.

From the Quotes page: “Does he believe that I think of a wretched fiddle when the spirit speaks to me?”

I personally believe that when an artist is creating, emotion is flowing, and the spirit is speaking, it isn't possible to divide it into 'mine' and 'theirs' or to question it too much.

Also I think all previous music, if it was any good, had also expressed emotion. But in the Romantic era, expressing emotion became one of the main raisons d'etre for music. This would have happened without Beethoven, but he gave it great impetus.

Chaszz

That is just my opinion,
I may be wrong.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited November 18, 2003).]

[urtextmeister]

I agree that music has almost always tried to express emotion. This is not to say, however, that emotion is always flowing during the compositional process. Ned Rorem said that composing for him is as unpleasant and arduous as any job and he despises it. Dominick Argento writes his final draft while listening to radio call-in shows. There is probably an emotion catalyst for most great pieces, but that often happens in a flash and the tedious work of composing begins.

How much of Beethoven's music expresses his personal emotions as opposed to universal emotions? That is a meaty question...

Getting back to the original topic. I think what makes Beethoven a classical composer first and foremost is his "need" to balance out musical/emotional statements with contrasting statements. There is rarely a time when Beethoven dwells in a mood for a long time with nothing to balance it. You could point to something like the first movement of the Moonlight, but look at the other movements and how they tilt things in a different direction.

Yes, Beethoven expanded the length of compositions and orchestral forces needed, but this seems to be a different process than it was with the romantic composers. Beethoven simply had more to say. He wasn't trying to overwhelm the listener with sound...

I guess my answer is: I don't know.

[Stargazer78]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Dan,
My personal opinion is that in terms of form and particularly harmonic structure, he had little or no influence.

Admidetly, i'm not an expert, but i always assumed his late compositions were an inspiration for the structural development of 20th century music...

[This message has been edited by Stargazer78 (edited November 17, 2003).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
From the Quotes page: “Does he believe that I think of a wretched fiddle when the spirit speaks to me?”

I personally believe that when an artist is creating, emotion is flowing, and the spirit is speaking, it isn't possible to divide it into 'mine' and 'theirs' or to question it too much.

Also I think all previous music, if it was any good, had also expressed emotion. But in the Romantic era, expressing emotion became one of the main raisons d'etre for music. This would have happened without Beethoven, but he gave it great impetus.

Chaszz

That is just my opinion,
I may be wrong.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited November 18, 2003).]

Chaszz,
Always such a confusing subject. But I'm not saying that B didn't pour his sweat and tears into his music, what I am so ineptly trying to say is that if you listen to a movement of his music, you should not say "Oh, B is telling me that he feels sad here", but rather "the music I am hearing makes ME feel sad". I think this is the essence of music after 1800, and that B was the first to successfully capture that. My feeling about the Romantic music is just the opposite, which is precisely "Liszt is wallowing in self-pity here" or whatever example you wish to use (not meaning to pick on Liszt, who I happen to like). As for the emotion expressed in Romantic music, obviously I quite agree with you there, possibly also on its inevitability. But I think that B opened that door. Later composers may have been too intimidated to adopt his structure and style, but they didn't mind applying his pathos to their own structure and style.


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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Stargazer78:
Admidetly, i'm not an expert, but i always assumed his late compositions were an inspiration for the structural development of 20th century music...

[This message has been edited by Stargazer78 (edited November 17, 2003).]

Well, I am no expert either, nor do I pretend to be one, but it is my belief that with very few exceptions, after B's death there was nothing written that followed his structural patterns. Brahms certainly would have liked to do that, and probably came closest the most often, and Schubert's Quintet in C major and Dvorak's Quartet (also in C major, Op 61) were exceptionally classical in style and structure, but as a rule, Beethoven scared the hell out of later composers, who no longer had the tools and language necessary to write "classical" music. They loved and admired him, but they didn't copy him. I suspect they knew better than to try. Basically they developed a new language. I like it, thousands don't. But it cannot be compared, IMHO.



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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Joy]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:


you should not say "Oh, B is telling me that he feels sad here", but rather "the music I am hearing makes ME feel sad". I think this is the essence of music after 1800, and that B was the first to successfully capture that.

Well said, Gurn.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Well, I am no expert either, nor do I pretend to be one, but it is my belief that with very few exceptions, after B's death there was nothing written that followed his structural patterns. Brahms certainly would have liked to do that, and probably came closest the most often, and Schubert's Quintet in C major and Dvorak's Quartet (also in C major, Op 61) were exceptionally classical in style and structure, but as a rule, Beethoven scared the hell out of later composers, who no longer had the tools and language necessary to write "classical" music. They loved and admired him, but they didn't copy him. I suspect they knew better than to try. Basically they developed a new language. I like it, thousands don't. But it cannot be compared, IMHO.

Wasn't it Brahms who took several years to compose a symphony because of his admiration and intimidation of Beethoven?? (I might be wrong here).

[Gurn Blanston]

Joy,
No, you are not wrong. Even more radically, he postponed publishing his Op 51 string quartets for over 20 years because he was afraid of the inevitable comparisons. "Standing on the shoulders of giants" can be pretty tiring, I guess ;-)


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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Joy:
Well said, Gurn.

Thank you, Ma'am. Some thoughts are very hard to express, that one took a while!



------------------
Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Stargazer78]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Well, I am no expert either, nor do I pretend to be one, but it is my belief that with very few exceptions, after B's death there was nothing written that followed his structural patterns. Brahms certainly would have liked to do that, and probably came closest the most often, and Schubert's Quintet in C major and Dvorak's Quartet (also in C major, Op 61) were exceptionally classical in style and structure, but as a rule, Beethoven scared the hell out of later composers, who no longer had the tools and language necessary to write "classical" music. They loved and admired him, but they didn't copy him. I suspect they knew better than to try. Basically they developed a new language. I like it, thousands don't. But it cannot be compared, IMHO.

I just remembered this thread is about Romantic music, now i see what you meant in your original comment, sorry

Indeed, nothing of what came afterwards can be compared to what Beethoven was doing, i really wish he had lived another 10 years, who knows how furthere he could have gone...

[Peter]

Originally posted by Stargazer78:
I just remembered this thread is about Romantic music, now i see what you meant in your original comment, sorry

Indeed, nothing of what came afterwards can be compared to what Beethoven was doing, i really wish he had lived another 10 years, who knows how furthere he could have gone...

I'm just grateful he lived at all - had he lived ten more years you would have said the same thing!

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'Man know thyself'