Beethoven and the English Monarchy

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Perhaps it was more a deep seated fear of travelling on hard seats on bumpy roads in bad weather and on bad seas.Travel wasn't very comfortable at the time.

Seems that he was often in poor health, too. Traveling might have been particularly distressing to him in his condition.

[Joy]

I hadn't thought about the uncomfortable traveling conditions of the 1700's and 1800's, of course this might have been a factor as well! Thinking of how comfortable and easy it is for us to travel nowadays it's almost impossible to put your feet into their shoes of years ago and imagine how difficult it was for them. No wonder so many people didn't venture out. I guess those who did were rather adventuresome.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Joy,
Yes, it is true that B "underachieved" in some of his ambitions. But I think you could categorize those things into 2 groups, one of which he could control, and one of which he couldn't. Truly, none of us can make someone marry us if they are not so inclined, and your example of marriage and children falls into that category quite neatly. But B was in full control, at least on the surface, of whether he went to England or Bonn. So, I think that the surmise that he had some deep seated fear of foreign places can at least be postulated here. It is surely not that unusual, I even share it myself!! I would be interested in learning of other examples that would support or refute this idea. Thanks for your comments, perceptive as always.

Thanks Gurn! I certianly agree with the fact that a lot of things are out of our control and your categorizing these into different groups.



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Joy:
I hadn't thought about the uncomfortable traveling conditions of the 1700's and 1800's, of course this might have been a factor as well! Thinking of how comfortable and easy it is for us to travel nowadays it's almost impossible to put your feet into their shoes of years ago and imagine how difficult it was for them. No wonder so many people didn't venture out. I guess those who did were rather adventuresome.

Joy & Sorrano,
Yes, you are quite correct about relative comforts, although I feel as though you have answered your own objections by pointing out that it was only in comparison to our own. They didn't know differently, did they? And it was a shared misery in any case. But really, B wasn't loathe to travel, he went into the hinterlands around Vienna every summer, trip which usually were 2 days at best, so he certainly knew the hardships. I think that it was not the travelling that feared him, but the destination(s). I guess that logic just doesn't apply here, since logically one would say that only good could come from a trip to England (or Bonn), and that wasn't enough to move him past his reticence. Oh well, lacking more evidence, we would have to move into the realm of speculation, which I am loathe to do.


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Joy:
Thanks Gurn! I certianly agree with the fact that a lot of things are out of our control and your categorizing these into different groups.

Joy,
Yes, always helps to break down the problem into little pieces. And to speak with cultured and intelligent people while doing so. ;-))



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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[mrfixit]

Originally posted by Frohlich:

I agree with you Chaszz,

Only I would say that on my darker days when I look at the state of British society, I begin to doubt the present day English have anything at all in common with our Empire building forebears of the past.
Without being rude to Italians, a country I greatly love, I think I have to say, I can see no trace in present day Italians of the Romans of the past, and that applies to the Greeks also, (which is something Byron became all too tragically aware of).
I suppose we have to say that in a sense, Britians inheritance has now been transmitted to the US, and it is a spirit that now resides there rather than in this green and pleasant land. Certainly American social and political attitudes mirror quite closely the philosophy of Britians empire builders of the past, and also the religious matrix whereas present day Britian is frankly is a liberal and amoral mess!
English literature is incredible. Unless you happen to be very wealthy, kids do not learn anything about Britians past, indeed they are hardly taught anything at all from what I can see, and as for Christianity, Britian becam a pagan society many, many years ago. In America at least, people at least in a sense have to sign up to the American constitution, but there is nothing, literaly nothing in Britian that acts as a social glue, and the historical point here is that any society like Britians today without beliefs is doomed to collapse.
We are like Pygmies today trying to stand on the shoulders of giants eagerly consuming what remains of the Capital of the past.

I have always been fascinated with Russian literature, and at the moment I am into Prokofiev's 'Alexander Nevsky' introduced to me by a collegue at work, who sings in the London Symphony Choir. Stirring stuff!
I also adore Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet, I love this piece, you can feel the searing hatred and menace between the two warring factions, the Montague's and the Capulet's.

[This message has been edited by Frohlich (edited October 29, 2003).]

Aint that a good thing? Well in regards to the English. We have done a lot of things we shuld be ashamed of. Dont want to get too much into it, but in a lot of ways we are better now. At least there was 2 million people with a conscience that marched when the war started. As far as i am aware people well less concerned with what goverments did before the 20th centruy.

[Frohlich]

Originally posted by mrfixit:
Aint that a good thing? Well in regards to the English. We have done a lot of things we shuld be ashamed of. Dont want to get too much into it, but in a lot of ways we are better now. At least there was 2 million people with a conscience that marched when the war started. As far as i am aware people well less concerned with what goverments did before the 20th centruy.

Alex,
Well governments were far smaller then, but it is certainly not true to say they were less concerned.
British Historian,A.J.P. Taylor said, the only contact people in Britian had with the government was a post box.

[Steppenwolf]

[quote]Originally posted by Frohlich:
[b]

Originally posted by Peter:
Perhaps Beethoven was under the illusion that the British Royal family were somehow cultured - not much chance today either unless he came by horse! I'm reminded of Wagner's thoughts when asked by Queen Victoria how he found the music in England, he was tempted to answer that he was still looking for it!

We totally agree with you Peter! My Husband tells me that when Wagner came to London he later told a friend that he had now seen the models for the Niebelungs in his Ring Cycle,and when he took a trip to the East India Docks and saw the Stevedore's there and was so shocked by their brutalized existance that he thought that he had entered the underworld by mistake.

I have read about that too. Apparently when, riding up the Thames on a ferry boat with his wife, they went past the industrialised East End, Wagner said it reminded him of Nibelheim - the subterranean realm of dwarfs in Das Rheingold, the members of which become enslaved by Alberich, the evil dwarf who steals the magic ring. The story was partly inspired by the horrors of the industrial revolution (as George Bernard Shaw noted in his book about the Ring Cycle) so the comparison was an appropriate one.

Onto the English thing ... I don't think Wagner was too keen on the English. In his short story written in his youth 'Pilgrimage to Beethoven' the 'baddy' or villain is an absurd, pompous Englishman who foils interferes with the mission of a poor but honest German musician who is trying to meet his idol Beethoven. Again in the sequel, in which the musician meets his end in Paris, another evil Englishman steals his dog! Somewhere else Wagner wrote that a typical Englishman reminded him of a sheep, with a sheep's ability to sniff out food (I'm not sure if I really understand that comparison ...)

Not all Germans however shared that rivalry between England. Another German I have been reading a lot of recently, the philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer (of whom, incidently, Wagner was a follower) believed that the English were the most intelligent people in the world (I wonder if he would modify that opinion at all were he alive today)

[Frohlich]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
I have read about that too. Apparently when, riding up the Thames on a ferry boat with his wife, they went past the industrialised East End, Wagner said it reminded him of Nibelheim - the subterranean realm of dwarfs in Das Rheingold, the members of which become enslaved by Alberich, the evil dwarf who steals the magic ring. The story was partly inspired by the horrors of the industrial revolution (as George Bernard Shaw noted in his book about the Ring Cycle) so the comparison was an appropriate one.

Onto the English thing ... I don't think Wagner was too keen on the English. In his short story written in his youth 'Pilgrimage to Beethoven' the 'baddy' or villain is an absurd, pompous Englishman who foils interferes with the mission of a poor but honest German musician who is trying to meet his idol Beethoven. Again in the sequel, in which the musician meets his end in Paris, another evil Englishman steals his dog! Somewhere else Wagner wrote that a typical Englishman reminded him of a sheep, with a sheep's ability to sniff out food (I'm not sure if I really understand that comparison ...)

Not all Germans however shared that rivalry between England. Another German I have been reading a lot of recently, the philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer (of whom, incidently, Wagner was a follower) believed that the English were the most intelligent people in the world (I wonder if he would modify that opinion at all were he alive today)

Very interesting Steppenwolf, and I completely agree. I do not want to get my husband on the subject of Schopenhauer whom he can talk on at length as I know to my cost, for hours on end, and whom he regards as one of the greatest philosophers of all time, with his dynamic conception of the Will, which held Wagner and Nietzsche completely inthrall and in general terms has really not been fully appreciated in the English speaking world.


[This message has been edited by Frohlich (edited November 14, 2003).]