Favourite Quartets

[Peter]

When it comes to discussing favourite B works, it is usually the Symphonies and sonatas that come at the top, so I wondered which quartets are loved the most - I think Op.18 no.1, Op.59 no.1, Op.74, Op.95 and Op.130 are my favourites, but I also love many individual movements from the other quartets.

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'Man know thyself'

[Michael]

I had a terrible time initially with the quartets. I had recordings of all the symphonies and concertos, and a few piano sonats when I bought a recording of Opus 59 No.3 and Opus 74 (The Harp) and I could not make myself like them. I thought they were the most tuneless, scratchy, awkward pieces of music I had ever heard. Opus 59 No. 1 followed and that didn't seem much better for a while.
The strange thing is that they didn't click in gradually but almost overnight! The next recording I bought was Opus 59 No 2 and that was love at first sight.
I was curious about the late quartets and, having only one musical guide-book (The Pan Book of Great Composers, published in 1964), I looked up what the author had to say. I will copy it exactly - and remember, this guy is writing about the late quartets:

"....taken as a whole, the late quartets make heavy going.... there are those who find beauty even in ugliness, but ugly music remains ugly music no matter who puts his name to it. Rather than pay the customary lip-service to those extraordinary works ... let us recognise and accept the fact that they are predominantly rough-edged and excuse it by recalling that they were put to paper at a time when Beethoven became stone deaf; it is significant that alongside passages of almost divine beauty are some which in theory ought to sound well but in practice don't; others which are so fragmentary in construction that they look and sound as though they were preliminary sketches for ... orchestral composition ...."

Have you had enough? Angels and ministers of grace defend us! And this from a chap who seemed quite knowledgeable, and who wrote well enough about other composers! I wonder how many people read that and avoided the late quartets?
I didn't thankfully. The first two bars of Opus 127 blew away for me all the above tripe!

Michael

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:

When it comes to discussing favourite B works, it is usually the Symphonies and sonatas that come at the top, so I wondered which quartets are loved the most - I think Op.18 no.1, Op.59 no.1, Op.74, Op.95 and Op.130 are my favourites, but I also love many individual movements from the other quartets.

Peter, I`m curious to know why you rate op.18/1 the best of that set. It does have the greatest slow movement - is this what swings it for you? I prefer no.6. In it, I hear B flexing his muscles for the challenges ahead.

I could also ask Michael this: Why op. 59/1 ahead of 59/2 or 59/3? I find it impossible to separate any of them, although the missing exposition repeat of no.1 still throws me!

Of the last 5 quartets, I plump for the A minor, with its hymn of thanksgiving, capricious march & most expressive of all Beethoven finales. I cannot believe that B was in anything other than a joyous mood when he wrote this finale - it has the most enormous power to lift the spirits.

[Luis]

Originally posted by Michael:
I was curious about the late quartets and, having only one musical guide-book (The Pan Book of Great Composers, published in 1964), I looked up what the author had to say. I will copy it exactly - and remember, this guy is writing about the late quartets:

"....taken as a whole, the late quartets make heavy going.... there are those who find beauty even in ugliness, but ugly music remains ugly music no matter who puts his name to it. Rather than pay the customary lip-service to those extraordinary works ... let us recognise and accept the fact that they are predominantly rough-edged and excuse it by recalling that they were put to paper at a time when Beethoven became stone deaf; it is significant that alongside passages of almost divine beauty are some which in theory ought to sound well but in practice don't; others which are so fragmentary in construction that they look and sound as though they were preliminary sketches for ... orchestral composition ...."

Michael

I don’t remember this imbecile’s name (not the one you've mentioned, another) but I’ve read he has stated than B’s later quartets not only evidently were composed by a deaf person but also they should be played y deaf musicians too!!

[Chris]

Whoa - harsh!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Michael:
I had a terrible time initially with the quartets. I had recordings of all the symphonies and concertos, and a few piano sonats when I bought a recording of Opus 59 No.3 and Opus 74 (The Harp) and I could not make myself like them. I thought they were the most tuneless, scratchy, awkward pieces of music I had ever heard. Opus 59 No. 1 followed and that didn't seem much better for a while.
The strange thing is that they didn't click in gradually but almost overnight!
Michael

Although you seem to have been converted, this is still my opinion regarding the vast majority of interpretations I have heard of these quartets. The awkwardness and scratchiness comes from the uncouth playing techniques used by todays performers, especially the total overuse of vibrato across the total length of any note long enough to allow its use (and also notes that are too short, but have been extended to accomodate vibrato). Then we have the super high tension stringing and the chin rests, further curses of the 20th Century, that allow for totally over the top playing. I had never heard a plausible rendition of the first movement of op59/3 until I got my hands recently on a recording using B's own (as far as can be known) instruments using gut strings - B's use of the high notes sounds ear-splitting to me on steel strings played under exertion, but on this recording the effect was totally natural.

Rod


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
Peter, I`m curious to know why you rate op.18/1 the best of that set. It does have the greatest slow movement - is this what swings it for you? I prefer no.6. In it, I hear B flexing his muscles for the challenges ahead.

You're right PDG - the 2nd movement of Op.18 no.1 definitely swings it for me - the greatest movement from the Op.18 set. I also think the 1st movement and the Scherzo from no.1 are very fine also.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
You're right PDG - the 2nd movement of Op.18 no.1 definitely swings it for me - the greatest movement from the Op.18 set. I also think the 1st movement and the Scherzo from no.1 are very fine also.

Whilst no1 is certainly full of merit, I would say no3 is the most stylistically homogeneous work of the set, and as such is more akin to the later quartets.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Michael]

Originally posted by PDG:

I could also ask Michael this: Why op. 59/1 ahead of 59/2 or 59/3? I find it impossible to separate any of them, although the missing exposition repeat of no.1 still throws me!

Of the last 5 quartets, I plump for the A minor, with its hymn of thanksgiving, capricious march & most expressive of all Beethoven finales. I cannot believe that B was in anything other than a joyous mood when he wrote this finale - it has the most enormous power to lift the spirits.[/B]

I have just this minute finished listening to the Italianos playing Opus 59 No. 3 and I am wondering how could anyone pick one quartet out of the lot. All I can say about Opus 59 No. 1 is that, like the Pastoral Symphony, it was a breakthrough piece for me and I have a special affection for it. Also, the slow movement is unbelievably beautiful. Beethoven said of the Cavatina from Opus 130 that it brought him to tears just thinking of it. Well, the First Razumovsky slow movement does the same for me.
Regarding the late quartets, if you put a gun to my head and told me to pick just one, I would be dead in seconds. Alright, I'll narrow them down to the E flat, the B flat and the F major. Alright, don't shoot - the E flat (for today anyway).

Michael

[Michael]

Originally posted by Luis:
I don’t remember this imbecile’s name (not the one you've mentioned, another) but I’ve read he has stated than B’s later quartets not only evidently were composed by a deaf person but also they should be played y deaf musicians too!!

This imbecile was none other than the "great" conductor, Sir Thomas Beecham. He also described one of the movements of the Seventh Symphony as similar to "a lot of yaks dancing about"! I get the distinct feeling that he wasn't a fan of our boy. It's a wonder he didn't declare that Beethoven was ripe for the madhouse.

Michael

[Peter]

Originally posted by Michael:
This imbecile was none other than the "great" conductor, Sir Thomas Beecham. He also described one of the movements of the Seventh Symphony as similar to "a lot of yaks dancing about"! I get the distinct feeling that he wasn't a fan of our boy. It's a wonder he didn't declare that Beethoven was ripe for the madhouse.

Michael

Indeed Beecham was no great fan of B - He said 'the best of Beethoven's music, excepting the first 4 concertos,3rd 4th and 6th symphonies is second rate compared to Mozart'. He thought the 9th poorly orchestrated and said it was composed by a kind of Mr.Gladstone of music !

Beecham of course was renowned for his wit, so I don't think he should be taken too seriously .

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'Man know thyself'

[Michael]

Didn't Beecham also describe the sound of the harpsichord as "two skeletons copulating on a galvanised roof"?

Michael

[Rod]

Originally posted by Michael:
Didn't Beecham also describe the sound of the harpsichord as "two skeletons copulating on a galvanised roof"?

Michael

Why was this buffoon made a 'Sir'? It can't be for his contribution to the world of music!

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Luis]

Originally posted by Michael:
Regarding the late quartets, if you put a gun to my head and told me to pick just one, I would be dead in seconds. Alright, I'll narrow them down to the E flat, the B flat and the F major. Alright, don't shoot - the E flat (for today anyway).

Michael

The E-flat quartet is SO wonderful! To me, the most moving movement is the second. And I’m interested to know what B was trying to figure with it. (If B was actually doing so) as well as what do you picture while hearing it. To me it’s solitude. The most profound isolation accompanied with some moments of little happiness, distraction, or resignation. I generally picture the terrible image of Beethoven in one of the most cruel and ironical kind of isolation. To my mind comes the image of he being sit alone on a tavern (maybe reading the newspaper) absorbed on his own thoughts and seeing but not hearing other people talking, laughing, vehemently discussing, while he can’t perceive the minimum sound. There is Beethoven, wondering what all these people could be talking about and how he now miss that annoying bustle. How strange all these people are to him and how terrible was his alienation.
- Hey, this could be a good scene for the movie! The tavern full of the typical characters talking and the camera as if were Beethoven’s own eyes seen the scene with no sound in the movie at all. And then the quartet music as if Beethoven was starting to compose it. What do you think?

There are plenty of moments in other later quartets that inspire me this loneliness feeling but none like this 2nd movement.


“The sound of the harpsichord as two skeletons copulating on a galvanised roof”
Ja! That’s a good one!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Luis:


There are plenty of moments in other later quartets that inspire me this loneliness feeling but none like this 2nd movement.

I agree, one variation in particular captures this feeling of loneliness you mention like no other, but I would not convey this emotion to the whole movement, one of the variations is extremely jolly and playful yet intellectual at the same time, others are meditative. This movement is played too slow on everage for my taste, so that much of the cantabile lyricism is lost in the quest for romantic 'depth'. B's adagio movements are rather more dynamic than performers usually perform them. But the scherzo of op127 is always made a meal of, I've rarely heard a recording where it has been played any faster than moderato.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin