Sonata #14 (Moonlight) mvm, iii

[Zhire]

Ouch! Technical execution of this movement is turning out to be quite a challenge! My thumb lags behind on those arpeggios in the first section. My Dover Edition has 1, 2, 3, 5 for the fingering. Is this optimal? I'd be asking my piano teacher but he doesn't know I'm working on this and he would probably yell at me for it
Right now he has me working on Rachmaninoff's C-Sharp Minor Prelude and Chopin's E Minor Prelude one of which (Rmnff) I have yet to finish.

Also...I just recently purchased Complete Chopin Preludes/Etudes which, I have been told, offer a great deal of technique development. Is there a particular one which would me develope the technique I need here? He'll no doubt have me do another Chopin Prelude or Etude.

[Peter]

Either the first C major Etude or the Eb Prelude would certainly be of value in arpeggio work - beware they are very difficult and need expert guidance! I would not advise working on a Beethoven sonata either without your teacher's help - you can do yourself more harm than good.

Why not simply practice your arpeggios firmly(slowly at first) - remember to play on the tips and pick your fingers up as you go and bring the thumb into the hand!

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'Man know thyself'

[Chris]

Originally posted by Peter:
I would not advise working on a Beethoven sonata either without your teacher's help - you can do yourself more harm than good.

Well, you're the expert here, but I'm not sure I entirely agree with that. Piano lessons would have been pretty terrible for me if I didn't work on pieces on the side. When you love listening to classical music, sometimes it just drives you crazy that you're sitting there working on some stupid piece that you hate and nobody else has ever heard of while there are great works to be played!

Now this fellow seems to be working on some nice stuff in his lessons, and I certainly wouldn't suggest not practicing what your teacher assigns you (especially since you're paying for these lessons!), but sometimes branching out on your own really keeps your interest high.

I remember that after a year of lessons, I wanted to learn to play Tchaikovsky's piano concerto no. 1. My teacher said it was a very advanced piece and that it would only frustrate me, and that I would get to it once I had been playing a lot longer. But I loved that piece, and every day I would sit for hours at the piano going over it and over it. I never did learn the whole thing, but I did eventually learn quite a bit from each movement, and could play those bits pretty well, too. I even recreated the orchestra parts to the second movement on my computer to play along with. No easy task to recreate all the parts from the piano reduction I had, by the way

So was it a waste of time? Yes, in the sense that I still can't play the piece (and haven't even tried in years), but no in that I really learned a lot about music and piano and composition in the process. Not to mention had tons of fun doing it.

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited November 05, 2003).]

[Zhire]

Either the first C major Etude or the Eb Prelude would certainly be of value in arpeggio work - beware they are very difficult and need expert guidance! I would not advise working on a Beethoven sonata either without your teacher's help - you can do yourself more harm than good.
Why not simply practice your arpeggios firmly(slowly at first) - remember to play on the tips and pick your fingers up as you go and bring the thumb into the hand!

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Thanks for the info and suggestions

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Chris:

I remember that after a year of lessons, I wanted to learn to play Tchaikovsky's piano concerto no. 1. My teacher said it was a very advanced piece and that it would only frustrate me, and that I would get to it once I had been playing a lot longer. But I loved that piece, and every day I would sit for hours at the piano going over it and over it. I never did learn the whole thing, but I did eventually learn quite a bit from each movement, and could play those bits pretty well, too. I even recreated the orchestra parts to the second movement on my computer to play along with. No easy task to recreate all the parts from the piano reduction I had, by the way

So was it a waste of time? Yes, in the sense that I still can't play the piece (and haven't even tried in years), but no in that I really learned a lot about music and piano and composition in the process. Not to mention had tons of fun doing it.

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited November 05, 2003).]

I tried something similar with the Mozart Piano Concerto No. 23 (last movement). Half the fun was creating the orchestral parts with the computer. And, like you said, it is very helpful in learning about orchestration and composition.

I don't recall if Peter said this, but always practice slowly until the part is mastered. One needs to practice perfectly.

[Chris]

Actually, I did the parts to that concerto as well, but for the first movement. Of course, I cheated a bit on that one - I checked the score out of the library and just copied all the parts

[Beyond Within]

I am starting piano now, and for one reason only : To play the third movement of Beethovens Moonlight.

I play electric/classical guitar a lot, but as soon as I heard this piece I knew I had to learn piano. So my question is: if I start now, have a teacher, and practice 3-5 hours a day...how long will it take?

[spaceray]

I began piano a year and a half ago,one half hour lesson a week,I worked hard at it ,never having read music before, and I practised every day.It's like climbing Mt Everest. Somedays I feel like I will never get it no matter how hard I work at it,and it's really really boring most of the time, not the lesson part,but the tedious learning of the scales,arrpeggios, chords and inversions,scales and notereading,pedal exercises ,metronome exercises,and then learning all the little pieces "Johnny had a Donkey" and "Marching Soldiers" .Perhaps I don't have an aptitude for music or I would,by now, be able to play Beethoven's piano Sonata no.14 in C# minor opus27 no.2.If your serious about learning to play you will have to decide to spend at least a couple of years of hard work,If music comes easily to you ,who knows you could prove to be the next great star.

[Peter]

Originally posted by spaceray:
I began piano a year and a half ago,one half hour lesson a week,I worked hard at it ,never having read music before, and I practised every day.It's like climbing Mt Everest. Somedays I feel like I will never get it no matter how hard I work at it,and it's really really boring most of the time, not the lesson part,but the tedious learning of the scales,arrpeggios, chords and inversions,scales and notereading,pedal exercises ,metronome exercises,and then learning all the little pieces "Johnny had a Donkey" and "Marching Soldiers" .Perhaps I don't have an aptitude for music or I would,by now, be able to play Beethoven's piano Sonata no.14 in C# minor opus27 no.2.If your serious about learning to play you will have to decide to spend at least a couple of years of hard work,If music comes easily to you ,who knows you could prove to be the next great star.

Firstly I don't find scales and arpeggios boring! I admit the idea of them is tedious but if they are practised in varying ways always with musical effect then they become a pleasure - I still do them every day after more than 30 years!

The idea that you do not have musical apptitude if you can't play Op.27/2 after 18 months is silly - the average student would need around 10 years before giving a successful performance of it - obviously some very gifted students can do it in less. This is why it is much better to start around 7 years of age - adult beginners all too often have unrealistic expectations.

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'Man know thyself'

[urtextmeister]

Zhire,

Yes, this fingering is good. In order to play these arpeggios, you must not be afraid to put your thumb on black keys and you must develop a certain rotation in your hands and wrists. I can remember almost the exact moment when I had mastered this piece, technically. I was about 22 and had been playing piano since I was about 10 or 12. Peter is fairly accurate about 10 years.

Yes, you should always pursue music that interests you. My teacher said he would help me with any piece that interested me because I would learn twice as fast.

However, don't have unrealistic expectations. If you want to be a brain surgeon, you don't just go after someone's skull and start poking around. You crack open a few textbooks first. If you want to run a marathon, you don't just go for the 27 miles right off the bat.

Piano technique is a process like many things. You have start with the basics, master those and then move on. Don't get impatient, but don't lose sight of the goal.

There is a wonderful book about the struggles of an being an adult piano student. It is "Piano Lessons" by Noah Adams.

[Beyond Within]

Only 10 years? I thought it would take a life time! Thats awesome.

I actually enjoy "tedious" finger exercises more than just learning new songs. As peter said you can get creative and fun with it! When I play electric guitar all I do is practice supposedly boring arpeggio/scale run exercises, which I find as enjoyable as learning new songs.

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Peter:
Firstly I don't find scales and arpeggios boring! I admit the idea of them is tedious but if they are practised in varying ways always with musical effect then they become a pleasure - I still do them every day after more than 30 years!

The idea that you do not have musical apptitude if you can't play Op.27/2 after 18 months is silly - the average student would need around 10 years before giving a successful performance of it - obviously some very gifted students can do it in less. This is why it is much better to start around 7 years of age - adult beginners all too often have unrealistic expectations.

Peter
Firstly as you mention you have been playing for thirty years,I only a year and a half so I'm not surprised that you practise your exercises with no difficulty.Makeing my fingers play the same exercise over and over again is boring for me at this stage perhaps when I feel I've mastered these techniques it won't feel so tedious.And I'm not sure what you mean be variying your arppeggios to make them more interesting .I only know one way to play an arppeggio and have only been asked to play them in C,D and G . Musical effect? my teacher has not yet discussed this with me.I guess there's lots more to learn.
Learning to play at age fifty is loaded with frustrations never the less I've plunged in now and hope to make some progress at every stage.

And I'm not sure which emoticon you wish me to select to indicate my use of sarcasam but
Beyond Within was suggesting that he had only one reason to learn to play piano which I thought was pretty silly .

[Beyond Within]

I guess saying I have only "one reason" is a bit of an exaggeration. However, it was that piece in particular that made me call up the local music store and start lessons. My dad had been advising me to learn piano, atleast the basics so in the future as a musician it would help me get jobs. But I didnt feel that push from myself until I heard this piece. I guess my top goal for my piano playing is this piece...there are lots of fringe benefits,like learning the bass clef (which I cant site read well b/c classical guitar is in treble), and understanding the main creative outlet for most of the famous composers. But really the reason I started was that one piece. Im 18 BTW.

[Beyond Within]

Another thing:

Piano must be way more complex than guitar. In two years I could already play Far Beyond the Sun by Yngwie Malmsteen, which is supposedly some really technical electric guitar song. Download it sometime.

[Peter]

Originally posted by spaceray:

Peter
Firstly as you mention you have been playing for thirty years,I only a year and a half so I'm not surprised that you practise your exercises with no difficulty.Makeing my fingers play the same exercise over and over again is boring for me at this stage perhaps when I feel I've mastered these techniques it won't feel so tedious.And I'm not sure what you mean be variying your arppeggios to make them more interesting .I only know one way to play an arppeggio and have only been asked to play them in C,D and G . Musical effect? my teacher has not yet discussed this with me.I guess there's lots more to learn.
Learning to play at age fifty is loaded with frustrations never the less I've plunged in now and hope to make some progress at every stage.

And I'm not sure which emoticon you wish me to select to indicate my use of sarcasam but
Beyond Within was suggesting that he had only one reason to learn to play piano which I thought was pretty silly .

Well if you're only doing one octave, try doing 2. If you're doing 2 octave arpeggios try accenting them in 4's - make sure they're rhythmical. Try starting from the top as well as the bottom! Try starting in different octave positions. Practice in a dotted rhythm. Do them hands separately and together - play them loud and firm, play them soft, vary the speed - do a different one each day with its corresponding scale, not the three you are doing each day. Try and recognise scale and arpeggio patterns in your pieces and recognise keys - make sure your thumb passes smoothly under the hand - I could go on but this is turning into a music lesson!

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'Man know thyself'