David Zinman LIVE! Anyone?

[euphony131]

Hi all,

Recently obtained David Zinman and the Tonhalle Orchestra Zurich's Complete Beethoven symphony cycle (only had the Ninth before), and now I'm still trying to pick my jaw off the floor -- this has to be the finest Beethoven cycle I've EVER heard. Talk about Dynamism!

Self-appointed "Torch-bearers" and "Purists" will decry the fast tempos and sheer exuberance, but then these interpretations are meant to approximate B's ACTUAL (and hitherto unabided) intentions. Though I thought Sir Charles Mackerras's cycle was also very fresh and exciting.

Frankly, I think all this preoccupation with "Period" performances and "Purity" is a lot of balderdash. If you want to be a REAL "Purist" then you should play all of Beethoven's symphonies off-key, out-of-tune, and full of mistakes since that's how his work was initially approached by musicians. Beethoven wrote music so ahead of his time that much of it couldn't even be performed correctly till instruments capable enough came along. B. knew he was writing for the future; when a violinist once complained about the difficulty of one of his string quartets, B. stated to the effect: "That's because it's music for a later age."

So I think the best way of honoring B. is by using the most modern equipement available and by re-examining the scores for the Maestro's true intentions, just as Zinman has done. And WOW! Are the results spectacular!

That brings me (in a roundabout way) to my original inquiry -- I would dearly love to see Zinman and his 97-member orchestra LIVE, but can't seem to find a program for them online. They are based in Zurich, Switzerland. Might anyone have info on their concert dates and tickets? Thank you!!!

[Rod]

Originally posted by euphony131:
Hi all,

Recently obtained David Zinman and the Tonhalle Orchestra Zurich's Complete Beethoven symphony cycle (only had the Ninth before), and now I'm still trying to pick my jaw off the floor -- this has to be the finest Beethoven cycle I've EVER heard. Talk about Dynamism!

Self-appointed "Torch-bearers" and "Purists" will decry the fast tempos and sheer exuberance, but then these interpretations are meant to approximate B's ACTUAL (and hitherto unabided) intentions. Though I thought Sir Charles Mackerras's cycle was also very fresh and exciting.

Frankly, I think all this preoccupation with "Period" performances and "Purity" is a lot of balderdash. If you want to be a REAL "Purist" then you should play all of Beethoven's symphonies off-key, out-of-tune, and full of mistakes since that's how his work was initially approached by musicians. Beethoven wrote music so ahead of his time that much of it couldn't even be performed correctly till instruments capable enough came along. B. knew he was writing for the future; when a violinist once complained about the difficulty of one of his string quartets, B. stated to the effect: "That's because it's music for a later age."

So I think the best way of honoring B. is by using the most modern equipement available and by re-examining the scores for the Maestro's true intentions, just as Zinman has done. And WOW! Are the results spectacular!

That brings me (in a roundabout way) to my original inquiry -- I would dearly love to see Zinman and his 97-member orchestra LIVE, but can't seem to find a program for them online. They are based in Zurich, Switzerland. Might anyone have info on their concert dates and tickets? Thank you!!!

I don't know what all the fuss is about regarding Zinman's recordings, all he is doing is replicating what has been done on a number of earlier period instrument sets, only without the advantage of period instruments 9 - the advantages of which you are obviously unaware (and what about baroque music? - only a complete fool would say this sounds better played 'modern'!). I don't like the sound quality of these recordings, nor are the performances unduely meritous from what I have heard of them - they wouldn't make me let my Hanover Band set gather dust, out of tune or not! You should give the musicians of B's time a little more sympathy, is was common of them to play a new work with little or no rehearsal, a problem exasserbated by the more complex (at that time) direction required for many of B's works. Yet todays orchestras fair little better after 200 years practise!! I find it astonishing that whilst to aprove of the quest to hear Beethoven as the man himself intended yet you belittle the period instrument movement that obviously influenced Zinman himself! By the way MacKerras is also a period instrument conductor on occasion! I have a very good authentic version of the violin concerto directed by him. Seems you're a closet authentic instrument fan living in denial!

By 'later age' B meant a later state of mind and taste, a state we have yet to reach in my opinion.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[euphony131]

Rod,

Well, we obviously differ in our views about "Period" versus "Modern" playing. But what I find curious is that you readily go to AC/DC concerts (as noted in a prior post) and apparently savor lots of pop music, yet dread the thought of any Classical piece played on 20th century instruments. Huh? On top of that, you think nothing about bashing the likes of Gardiner and Previn, going so far to condemn the bulk of classical recordings as worthy of extinction. Hmmm...

Now I'm not an "elitist" and I'm not saying one can't listen to pop music while still enjoying Classical, but you seem to reserve all your vitriol EXCLUSIVELY for Classical and all its "lameness." Is Pop music really so perfect in comparision in your estimate? Even more parodoxical is that you apparently enjoy the "electricity" of an AD/DC concert but can't stand the idea of a pop-stylized Classical concert. In addition, you admitted (in the ULTIMATE post) you didn't even know of Gardiner's Bach recordings yet you dismissed the man entirely. Really, I'm not sure how to approach all that -- so I'll reserve comment on it.

But FYI, Gardiner's Bach recordings are largely done on PERIOD (there's your magic word!) instruments and are truly exquisite.

In truth, the term "period" instrument is a misnomer. The instruments used in so-called "period" performances are not actually 200 years old but are replicas made in the Modern-Day. I remember at the museum in Vienna of looking upon some actual instruments from the time of Mozart and Beethoven and just couldn't believe how "crude" they looked. The replicas that today's orchestras use are not anywhere near the same level of roughness. So, it's not really a "Period" performance is it?

Stradivarus notwithstanding, many instruments of the past were just not made very well. No wonder Beethoven always felt so hampered by the technology of his time! You can argue the semantics of "age" all you want, but what is irrefutable is that a lot of what B. wrote was viewed as "impossible" by his comtempories. Even an early work like the "Cantata on the Death of Joseph the II" was deemed "unplayable" and was not performed in his own lifetime. And let's not forget all the hassles he endured trying to coax players to play the Ninth as he wanted (and they still mucked it up!).

It took the advent of Modern instruments to bring out the full sonic range of his compositions. Would you really prefer to hear the Hammerklavier on an archiac piano-forte versus a Modern-Day Steinway? Do you think B. would? Do you think B. wrote music so that a 21st century audience could hear it on decrepit instruments that he himself deemed as "inadequate?" Can you deny he was always in search of a piano powerful and evolved enough to contain his enormous ideas?

Well, I'm not going to carry this on further. We could go on and on in circles arguing the merits of "Period" verus "Modern" or AC/DC versus Gardiner, etc., etc., though personally, I'll take a "lame" Gardiner or Previn over the "best" of Britney Spears or AC/DC any day -- but maybe that's just me, so who cares, right?

BTW, I've been keeping a running list and it appears that not only do you hate Gardiner, Haitink, and Previn, but now Zinman as well. Hmmmm... shall we add Von Karajan, Bernstein, Furtwangler, Szell, and Klemperer too? Oh, let's not forget the "lame" Mahler and Berlioz -- they were conductors too. Ah heck, why don't we just burn the lot of them! Well, have fun at your next AC/DC concert, good thing you won't be listening to any "lame" conductors.

PS -- Actually I'm just being a little "cheeky" as the English say. Don't take offense. I feel a kind of bond with all who can enjoy B's music (in whatever form). I know you must admire Beethoven otherwise you wouldn'be be here. Somewhere under that "bitter" exterior is a lover of Classical music, yes? Take it easy. Relax. Put on Gardiner's Bach Mass in B minor. You'll like it. Really.

PPS -- Whew! That out of the way...does anyone know of Zinman's concert program?

[This message has been edited by euphony131 (edited 01-12-2001).]

[Rod]

I hope all this consistant comparison of classical and pop music in competition with each other is not undertaken in academic circles, because the whole notion is ludicrous. Regarding Gardiner, you did not read my posting correctly, for I said I had his Handel and Beethoven recordings, enough to make a judgement of his style, which I'm my opinion can on occasion be unfeeling and/or uninspired (but perhaps his style is better suited to Bach than B or H). I'm not surprised you approve of Gardiner, for his Beethoven symphony recordings are the least 'period sounding' of all those available in this genre (a point noted by at least one press critic I read). Period instruments alone are not enough to guarantee a good interpretation, but in the right hands they WILL produce the BEST interpretation. As is perhaps exampled by Gardiners Bach Mass I have not heard (and via which you contradict your own notions about period instruments)? With respect, your amateurish critisism of these instruments is not worthy of my response. Just being a bit cheeky myself.

Rod


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Suzie]

By 'later age' B meant a later state of mind and taste, a state we have yet to reach in my opinion.

Rod

Here we go again!

S

[~Leslie]

Let the Games Begin!!!

Quote from Mr. Euphony:

BTW, I've been keeping a running list and it appears that not only do you hate Gardiner, Haitink, and Previn, but now Zinman as well. Hmmmm... shall we add Von Karajan, Bernstein, Furtwangler, Szell, and Klemperer too? Oh, let's not forget the "lame" Mahler and Berlioz -- they were conductors too. Ah heck, why don't we just burn the lot of them! Well, have fun at your next AC/DC concert, good thing you won't be listening to any "lame" conductors.
**************************

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!

No lamer than the usual fare of metal pentatonic wankers! LOL!~

[Suzie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ~Leslie:
[B]Let the Games Begin!!!

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!

No lamer than the usual fare of metal pentatonic wankers! LOL!~

Hey,

AC/DC rocks!

SMB

[Rod]

Originally posted by ~Leslie:
Let the Games Begin!!!

Quote from Mr. Euphony:

BTW, I've been keeping a running list and it appears that not only do you hate Gardiner, Haitink, and Previn, but now Zinman as well. Hmmmm... shall we add Von Karajan, Bernstein, Furtwangler, Szell, and Klemperer too? Oh, let's not forget the "lame" Mahler and Berlioz -- they were conductors too. Ah heck, why don't we just burn the lot of them! Well, have fun at your next AC/DC concert, good thing you won't be listening to any "lame" conductors.
**************************

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!

No lamer than the usual fare of metal pentatonic wankers! LOL!~

Agreed, as I am not intersted in the usual fare of metal either. I have probably bought more cd's by Karajan et al than my detractors here put together, but the final word is not theirs.

Rod



------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Suzie:
By 'later age' B meant a later state of mind and taste, a state we have yet to reach in my opinion.

Rod

Here we go again!

S

Well, some people will just not be told...

Rod



------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[PDG]

Originally posted by ~Leslie:
[b]Let the Games Begin!!!
Quote from Mr. Euphony:
BTW, I've been keeping a running list and it appears that not only do you hate Gardiner, Haitink, and Previn, but now Zinman as well. Hmmmm... shall we add Von Karajan, Bernstein, Furtwangler, Szell, and Klemperer too? Oh, let's not forget the "lame" Mahler and Berlioz -- they were conductors too. Ah heck, why don't we just burn the lot of them! Well, have fun at your next AC/DC concert, good thing you won't be listening to any "lame" conductors.
**************************
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!
No lamer than the usual fare of metal pentatonic wankers! LOL!~

Always nice to see quaint, old-fashioned, English colloquialisms being used, Les!

[Suzie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
[B] Well, some people will just not be told...

Rod

It's like bangin' your head against the wall. I have my Hanover Band to soothe the ache.

Suz

[~Leslie]

Suzie, Rod, PDG, and Mr. Epiphany, Thank you for the best laugh I've had all day.
Cheers<g> ~Les

[euphony131]

LOL! Rod, us two "cheeky" guys just need to sit down, have a coupla' stiff ones and laugh this out. You bring your Hanover, I'll bring my Zinman and together we'll "rock" the whole bar! Sound good?

BTW, what does "ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!" mean?

Uhhh...and now about Zinman's concert program? Anyone?

[~Leslie]

It means:

Rolling on floor laughing my (pentatonic)axe off.~

[Suzie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by euphony131:
[B]LOL! Rod, us two "cheeky" guys just need to sit down, have a coupla' stiff ones and laugh this out. You bring your Hanover, I'll bring my Zinman and together we'll "rock" the whole bar! Sound good?

BTW, what does "ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!" mean?

Uhhh...and now about Zinman's concert program? Anyone?

Mr. 131,

Well, the only one we can ask is Leonard. So I will and I'll get back to you.

Suz