Piano Sonata #1 and Eroica Symphony connection?

[euphony131]

In the finale of Sonata #1, a new theme comes at the start of the Development section. Does this have any similarity to the way LvB put in a new theme in the Eroica's 1st mvt Development? In both cases the new themes are more "melodic" than the principal themes. Perhaps LvB needed a respite from the motivic propulsion, an "eye of the storm" sort of thing? I thought there was some deeper key-related connections. The two works are in different keys, yes. But maybe both new themes (being in Major) have the same speciall relationship to what came before? Does anyone know?

BTW, having completed my close listening traversal of all 32 sonatas in order, I have to say: I RECOMMEND IT. However, what stood out was the incongruity of sonatas 19 & 20. I learned they are earlier works that the Master was not above making money off of (through his brother Kaspar). To be honest, I would've been fine if he hadn't included them. They don't hold a candle to Opus 2 (the first 3 sonatas). So I see the true oeuvre as being 30, not 32, sonatas. I think anyone going through them for the first time might be better off leaving them out to get a proper sense of LvB's development and only listening to them afterwards.

PS: Now I plan to go through the whole cycle again.

[Peter]

Not sure there is a connection with the Eroica. The new theme in Op.2/1 is in the relative major key of Ab which would have been expected of the 2nd subject, so it;s acting in a harmonic capacity. In the Eroica the new theme is in a completely remote key (E minor) that doesn't serve the same purpose. It's introduction in this case is I think to extend the development section to give it the same proportions as the Exposition, this is all about the expansion of sonata form.

Regarding Op.49, I've always loved no.1 in G minor since I learnt it as a child and felt wonderful that I could play a Beethoven sonata! There are also the 3 very early sonatas WoO47 - I'm glad we have all of these, maybe just the numbering needs to be changes so the correct order of composition is reflected?

[euphony131]

It's introduction in this case is I think to extend the development section to give it the same proportions as the Exposition, this is all about the expansion of sonata form.

Thanks, Peter. So you mean there was not enough material in the two subjects to develop, so LvB added in a new tune to give it proportion in Sonata #1?

Yeah, I guess the subjects are pretty "motivic," not at all melodies, so it may have been too bland and boring to re-visit them again?

Although shades of the 1st theme do come back toward the end (of the Development), which is pretty cool actually.

[Peter]

Thanks, Peter. So you mean there was not enough material in the two subjects to develop, so LvB added in a new tune to give it proportion in Sonata #1?

Yeah, I guess the subjects are pretty "motivic," not at all melodies, so it may have been too bland and boring to re-visit them again?

Although shades of the 1st theme do come back toward the end (of the Development), which is pretty cool actually.

No I was referring to the Eroica with regards to extending the proportions of the development. I think you're probably right with the sonata that Beethoven felt the need for more contrasting material in the development than he had so far introduced in the exposition (both themes being in the minor) so this also serves as the expected relative major key of the 2nd subject.

[euphony131]

Peter, while on the subject of piano works, have you had a chance to hear: Cyprien Katsaris's Beethoven: A Chronological Odyssey?
Considering to pull the trigger on this set, as it has a quite a bit of rarities. It's gotten some great reviews, though hasn't gotten much limelight. But I admit to knowing NOTHING about Katsaris. He must be good though?
https://www.pianostreet.com/blog/art...w-light-10692/

[Peter]

Peter, while on the subject of piano works, have you had a chance to hear: Cyprien Katsaris's Beethoven: A Chronological Odyssey?
Considering to pull the trigger on this set, as it has a quite a bit of rarities. It's gotten some great reviews, though hasn't gotten much limelight. But I admit to knowing NOTHING about Katsaris. He must be good though?
https://www.pianostreet.com/blog/art...w-light-10692/

No I haven't come across these recordings before. It does sound very interesting and I would be particularly interested in his performance of the Liszt Beethoven symphony transcriptions. I like the fact he is drawn to Bechstein (I have one!) as was that other great pianist who first recorded all Beethoven sonatas on a Bechstein, Schnabel.

[euphony131]

I like the fact he is drawn to Bechstein (I have one!) as was that other great pianist who first recorded all Beethoven sonatas on a Bechstein, Schnabel.

Ah, I was intrigued by the Bechstein as well. Please tell me: what do you like about the instrument vs. the Steinway?

And which model do you have? Is it one of those 20-50K ones? Then again, I guess there's no such thing as a "cheap" Bechstein. Love to see a pic of it!

PS: Sonata #1 has the "Mannheim Rocket." Could you kindly tell me at what point the "rocket" ends and Beethoven (his own touch on it) begins? I'm thinking it's 20 seconds? I'm basing it on this vid:

[Peter]

Well no two Steinways or Bechsteins are going to be alike. A lot depends on when the piano was made and both to my mind were at their best up to the 1930s. I'm saying that because I have an 1895 model V Bechstein (walnut finish) which has been restored, but most importantly the soundboard is original. With Steinway I have a preference for the old Hamburg models over the New York as I think it offers a mellower sound. Interestingly in the 19th century Bechstein was the chosen instrument of Liszt as well.

As to the Mannheim rocket, it's just the first 6 notes - a rising arpeggio and he repeats it several times. It's just a device and if you look at something like the opening theme of the Eroica it is simply a chord of Eb, it doesn't make it any less Beethoven just because he's using a basic chord.

[euphony131]

Wow, an 1895 model! Must be rather priceless! So you think they've fallen off considerably since the 1930's? Why's that? Lack of skilled craftsmen?

Since I have your ear and since we're speaking of older pianos -- what do you think of the sonatas played on period instruments?
Are you a fan of "fortepiano" (as they call it)? 1895 wouldn't qualify. Though I don't know what the cut-off is exactly. Anything without a metal frame? Pre-1840?

This is the other set I was considering by Paul Badura Skoda: "A total of 7 different fortepianos (from six makers) were used, and each instrument sounded very individual and highly characterful."
https://hifiplus.com/articles/beetho...period-pianos/

To be honest though I have a tough time with the "tinkly" sound. Just doesn't have the rich, deep sonority of a modern grand (any make).
But maybe I should give it a go and re-condition my ears???

[Peter]

Wow, an 1895 model! Must be rather priceless! So you think they've fallen off considerably since the 1930's? Why's that? Lack of skilled craftsmen?

Since I have your ear and since we're speaking of older pianos -- what do you think of the sonatas played on period instruments?
Are you a fan of "fortepiano" (as they call it)? 1895 wouldn't qualify. Though I don't know what the cut-off is exactly. Anything without a metal frame? Pre-1840?

This is the other set I was considering by Paul Badura Skoda: "A total of 7 different fortepianos (from six makers) were used, and each instrument sounded very individual and highly characterful."
https://hifiplus.com/articles/beetho...period-pianos/

To be honest though I have a tough time with the "tinkly" sound. Just doesn't have the rich, deep sonority of a modern grand (any make).
But maybe I should give it a go and re-condition my ears???

Well I suppose period instrument is simply of the time the music was written, so the late Brahms piano pieces (1890s) are just about right for my piano!

I think it's fascinating that we can hear the older instruments now, but I'm not fanatical about the Beethoven sonatas being better on such instruments. After all pianists such as Liszt who lived through the big piano changes would hardly have wanted to play Beethoven on an old 1820s piano and Beethoven himself was always pushing for new innovations.

[Quijote]

[...] To be honest though I have a tough time with the "tinkly" sound. Just doesn't have the rich, deep sonority of a modern grand (any make).
But maybe I should give it a go and re-condition my ears???

Hello Euphony. When I first ventured into the HIP (historically informed performance) movement I too found the tinkly "western cowboy saloon" sound disturbing but after repeated listenings I became a convert and find it to be a very "clean" sound. Try this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2toYi_mcFp4