Scarlatti and Rameau

[Schenkerian]

Rameau played by Sokolov:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMPArG2lor8

Scarlatti played by Michelangeli; the first Sonata here I learned myself years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2pe4CJQsHU

The Rameau seems drier and more academic than the Scarlatti, though they inhabit a very similar sound world. I've always found more lyricism in Scarlatti.

Which of the two composers do you prefer? These are, of course, only a small sample of their keyboard outputs.

[Chris]

I have always favored Scarlatti, but to be fair I have heard much more of his work, so perhaps I need to invest a little more time into Rameau to make a proper comparison. But from what I have heard, I do think the melodies in Scarlatti's work put it higher for me.

[Peter]

I have to admit to a weakness in my familiarity not just with Rameau but a lot of Couperin as well. Scarlatti though I love - here is an amazing performance by Martha Argerich of K.141

[Peter]

Sticking with a French baroque theme, how about some Lully?

[Schenkerian]

Sticking with a French baroque theme, how about some Lully?

I very much like Lully!! I especially like 'Ceremonial March of the Turks".

Here is the march from a somewhat silly and pretentious Corneau film: Depardieu is absolutely priceless in this scene - but he DOES act with his eyes, which is incredible:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gKcSc-0Zkc

The French baroque is quite unique in many ways though, as I said before, there's a huge stylistic similarity between Scarlatti and Rameau. Orchestrally it's a different story for that musical period; Rameau and the German Telemann sounded similar but they were roughly contemporaneous. That latter composer seems hugely under-rated today!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNFkKhfdgZM

Lully and Rameau were the great French theatrical composers before the 19th century. I have lots of Rameau operas in my CD library. But this is definitely not music for the un-initiated. I presented a program to our community music group a couple of years ago on Rameau, after I'd done a lot of additional reading. Only then did I realize how esoteric a lot of it is for most modern audiences.

[Schenkerian]

So is it Scarlatti for harpsichord or piano? I like both, but here is Scott Ross playing some of these works. I have a CD of Scarlatti sonatas played by Scott Ross, given to me by a beloved friend who has since died. Not all the Sonatas are even in quality, some being very naive indeed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7wwYlScTrY&t=4s

[Peter]

So is it Scarlatti for harpsichord or piano? I like both, but here is Scott Ross playing some of these works. I have a CD of Scarlatti sonatas played by Scott Ross, given to me by a beloved friend who has since died. Not all the Sonatas are even in quality, some being very naive indeed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7wwYlScTrY&t=4s

My preference is always the piano - after a while I find the sound of the harpsichord grating. Scott Ross is very fine but after a few minutes I've had enough of that sound. Take the Bach 48 and nothing is finer than Edwin Fischer's recordings from the mid 1930s and I can't imagine swapping the beauty of that sound for a tinny harpsichord.

[Schenkerian]

My preference is always the piano - after a while I find the sound of the harpsichord grating. Scott Ross is very fine but after a few minutes I've had enough of that sound. Take the Bach 48 and nothing is finer than Edwin Fischer's recordings from the mid 1930s and I can't imagine swapping the beauty of that sound for a tinny harpsichord.

Absolutely take your point about the harpsichord, but it is the instrument for which these splendid Sonatas were composed. Remembering Thomas Beecham's remark about the harpsichord; it wasn't the excellent replica then that it is today. An entirely different beast altogether. The heavy ornamentation in some of these baroque sonatas does become a little overwhelming on the modern piano, though.

I have an excellent recording by Murray Perahia playing some of the Scarlatti sonatas: keyboard works by Handel are also on the same CD. Here is an excerpt and Perahia's treatment of Scarlatti is somewhat romantic.

It's a wonderful CD and I love it. What a complete pleasure being able to just talk about it!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKQ0bf2XoYM

Handel's "Harmonious Blacksmith" is also on the same CD and the whole Suite from which it comes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMe8TkNugMw

[Peter]

Absolutely take your point about the harpsichord, but it is the instrument for which these splendid Sonatas were composed. Remembering Thomas Beecham's remark about the harpsichord; it wasn't the excellent replica then that it is today. An entirely different beast altogether. The heavy ornamentation in some of these baroque sonatas does become a little overwhelming on the modern piano, though.

I have an excellent recording by Murray Perahia playing some of the Scarlatti sonatas: keyboard works by Handel are also on the same CD. Here is an excerpt and Perahia's treatment of Scarlatti is somewhat romantic.

It's a wonderful CD and I love it. What a complete pleasure being able to just talk about it!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKQ0bf2XoYM

Handel's "Harmonious Blacksmith" is also on the same CD and the whole Suite from which it comes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMe8TkNugMw

Absolutely, everything Perahia touches is perfection despite his career being plagued by injury and illness - I'm tempted to buy his 8 cd Bach box set for Christmas.

[Schenkerian]

I also have Perahia's Mendelssohn "Lieder Ohne Worte". Not all of them, just enough to leave you satisfied. This one always pleases and starts the day well - though not at this pace!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-_bjnDFkqQ

[Schenkerian]

This little dance from Rameau's "Les Boreades" shows just how elegant and refined he can be: Frans Bruggen conducting. (I have this CD. Somewhere!!)

Magnificently played by the Orchestra of the 18th Century:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arz0RP-DmkM

[Schenkerian]

I've only recently discovered this opera from Rameau and it's got some great instrumental music in it. "Nais". Composed when the master was 66 years old and obviously at the height of his powers. It still has that plangent quality that you find in his operas, along with the high ambitus of the woodwinds and their imitation by the vocal lines. This is tremendous music!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8_9D6Z62oE

[Peter]

I've only recently discovered this opera from Rameau and it's got some great instrumental music in it. "Nais". Composed when the master was 66 years old and obviously at the height of his powers. It still has that plangent quality that you find in his operas, along with the high ambitus of the woodwinds and their imitation by the vocal lines. This is tremendous music!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8_9D6Z62oE

So far only had time to listen to the overture and Attaquons les cieux, very enjoyable.

[Schenkerian]

This one-act opera by Rameau, "Pygmalion", is exceptional. I have a recording by La Petite Bande but this one with Les Arts Florissants is very good. I think I prefer it, not least because from what I've heard here there isn't that harshness of recorded sound. Note the (mostly) woodwinds in the Overture emulating the sound of the sculptor chiselling the statue!! The tempo of this section is a little fast for my taste but it's a remarkable piece of music in its evocation of a visual image. As with most of Rameau there are beautiful dance pieces and other incidental music in this work, some with chorus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3_hzrVKi0A

The opening aria 'Fatal Amour, cruel vainqueur is gold'!

"Pygmalion" is the age-old story of the idealized woman taken from Ovid's poem "Metaphormosis" - 'Pygmalion and the Statue". In the various treatments of this timeless narrative, we see different effects on the male. In Rameau's opera the sculptor is a helpless victim of her charms, who laments his uxorious state!! In Ovid's poem the statue is the active agent of the man's desire and guilty of 'conspiring' against him. (Sounds very modern, doesn't it!!)

[Henrik Stromberg]

I have to admit to a weakness in my familiarity not just with Rameau but a lot of Couperin as well. Scarlatti though I love - here is an amazing performance by Martha Argerich of K.141

Senora Argerich is a masterpiece musician. To my shame, I have never been to her performance.