Pitch (tuning) in Beethoven's day

[Quijote]

Tuning today is pretty much standardised* at A = 440 Hz but it was not always so. Pitch was not standardised in Beethoven’s time, and national or international standards only began to emerge later in the 19th century. As far as HIP (historically informed performance practice) is concerened these days, tuning is, give or take a few cents, a semitone lower.

So now I'm rather confused as I understand the British Library (BL) has in its possession an actual tuning fork belonging to Beethoven that gives A = 455.4 Hz, over half a semitone higher than today's standard ‘A’ pitch of 440 Hz!.

So was pitch in Bach's day lower than Beethoven's day?

Another question: we know from the literature that when rehearsing the 9th Symphony the singers (the chorus, mainly) complained that the soprano parts were too high, so I guess that makes sense if they used A = 455.4 Hz tuning!

Here's a link to the BL tuning fork where you can hear the given A = 455.4 Hz.
https://www.bl.uk/collection-items/b...ns-tuning-fork

Any thoughts?

* I wrote that today's orchestral tuning is standardised at A = 440 Hz but I have a practice CD of the Haydn cello concerto in C (the CD plays the orchestral part and you have to play the solo part against it) and the given A is several cents above 440 Hz. The CD's orchestral track is played by a Czech orchestra, if I recall correctly.

[Quijote]

Just to explain further to the non musicians here, a practice CD gives the accompaniment part and you, the solo player, can practice your part in the temporary absence of your real, physical accompanist.
At the time when I was a student, they were also great for busking!!

[Quijote]

Now here's a strange coincidence: as I write, I just caught the closing bars of a performance on TV (Deutche Welle TV station) of the Ninth performed by the orchestra Le Concert des Nations conducted by Jordi Savall (on period instruments). It was at today's standard pitch of A = 440 Hz. Go figure !!!!

[Sorrano]

Just to explain further to the non musicians here, a practice CD gives the accompaniment part and you, the solo player, can practice your part in the temporary absence of your real, physical accompanist.
At the time when I was a student, they were also great for busking!!

A practice CD would have saved me a lot of time with the Mozart Piano Concerto No. 23. I sequenced the entire 3rd movement, part by part.

[Sorrano]

Some of the digital pianos have alternate tunings, as well. The one I have does have one that assimilates a tuning close to Beethoven's day, but I cannot recall the tuning was called, nor can I locate the manual for the piano at the moment.

[Quijote]

A practice CD would have saved me a lot of time with the Mozart Piano Concerto No. 23. I sequenced the entire 3rd movement, part by part.

That, clearly, must have been a lot of work. What a glutton for punishment, Sorrano !!

[Quijote]

Some of the digital pianos have alternate tunings, as well. The one I have does have one that assimilates a tuning close to Beethoven's day, but I cannot recall the tuning was called, nor can I locate the manual for the piano at the moment.

Oh, that's a shame! If you could find that manual it would be great.

[Chris]

So was pitch in Bach's day lower than Beethoven's day?

I do know at least that it was not standard in Bach's day, even in the same place. They had "chamber pitch" which was closer to A = 415, which I suppose is why a lot of period instrument groups record at that pitch, but there was also "choir pitch", which was higher, around A = 465.

[Peter]

Then aside from the pitch, there was the system of tuning. Bach used Well temperament which in itself has a variety of different tuning systems!

[Quijote]

I do know at least that it was not standard in Bach's day, even in the same place. They had "chamber pitch" which was closer to A = 415, which I suppose is why a lot of period instrument groups record at that pitch, but there was also "choir pitch", which was higher, around A = 465.

Wow, that's pretty high. Do you have a reference for these chamber and choir pitches?

[Chris]

Wow, that's pretty high. Do you have a reference for these chamber and choir pitches?

My references for all matters of music scholarship are "things I think I read somewhere at some point, probably CD liner notes". For this I specifically remember Ton Koopman talking about A = 465. I think that was a video on YouTube where he was talking about the performance of Bach Cantatas, but I couldn't find it just now when I looked.

The new Bach organ in the Thomaskirche has A = 465 based on scholarship about German choir pitch in Bach's time, but I don't know what the original sources for that are.

The Wikipedia article on concert pitch - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch - says this:

It is, however, common performance practice, especially in the German Baroque idiom, to tune certain works to Chorton, approximately a semitone higher than 440 Hz (460–470 Hz) (e.g., Pre-Leipzig period cantatas of Bach).

As a reference it gives "Oxford Composer Companion JS Bach, pp. 369–372. Oxford University Press, 1999", so that might be a place to start. Searching on "Chorton" gives some promising leads as well.

[Quijote]

OK Chris, thanks for the reply.