Shared Mozart and Beethoven thematic material

[SR]

Anyone who has heard the overture to Mozarts opera Bastiene und Bastienne would certainly be aware of some similarity to the Eroica opening. It's not great but there is some similarity. A much greater similarity is Mozarts Offeratorium K222 which has a melody strikingly similar to the Choral Fantasy and the Ode to Joy.

Did Beethoven steal these from Mozart ? My feeling is not a chance. It is very unlikely that he ever heard Bastiene or K222. Bastiene and Eroica are most likely an accident. K222 and the Ode to Joy I'm not so sure, the similarity is too great to be just an accident IMO. I think a more likely scenario is that Mozart and Beethoven both borrowed from a folk tune, childrens song (It is after all a very simple melody) or from another composer long lost to us.

Is there anything in the Beethoven letters
that would shed any light on this ? Does he ever mention a source for the Choral/Ode to Joy theme ? I'm fairly up on my Mozart history but have never read a copy of Beethovens letters.

Thanks

Steve

[Peter]

The earliest Beethoven reference to this theme is the song Gegenliebe WoO118 of 1795. I don't think that 'steal' is the right word - it is possible that Beethoven knew these Mozart pieces but also when you examine something like the Eroica theme it is based on a common arpeggio and the Ode theme is based on a scale. In fact Classical composers were basically using the same ingredients so it isn't surprising that occasional similarities in themes can be found.

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'Man know thyself'

[Roehre]

If Beethoven would have known Mozart's Misericordia Domini KV222, then it cannot be explained why it took him so much trouble to eventually shape the Ode of Joy melody as we know it now.

Liebe und Gegenliebe WoO 118 was without a shred of doubt the source for the opus 80 fantasy. Unfortunately no sketches (if ever made) have survived regarding this song.

[gprengel]

Whow! I never heard of this Missa from Mozart until now as I heard it now on YouTube. The similiarity of Mozart's side thought to Beethoven's Ode of Joy is really striking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngop6...eature=related at 1:44

If Beethoven would have known Mozart's Misericordia Domini KV222, then it cannot be explained why it took him so much trouble to eventually shape the Ode of Joy melody as we know it now.


Did it really take him trouble to form the melody? The melody was sketched in 1822 right away in the form we know it today. It was only the introduction of the 4th movement which took him much work. But I also can't really imagine that Beethoven knew this early Mozart work.

[Roehre]

If Beethoven would have known Mozart's Misericordia Domini KV222, then it cannot be explained why it took him so much trouble to eventually shape the Ode of Joy melody as we know it now.


Did it really take him trouble to form the melody? The melody was sketched in 1822 right away in the form we know it today. It was only the introduction of the 4th movement which took him much work. But I also can't really imagine that Beethoven knew this early Mozart work.

The melody sketched in summer or fall 1822 is only the first four bars which -admittedly- are nearly identical to the first four bars of the melody as it appears in the symphony. Later (but still in 1822) completely other, different versions appear, but Beethoven returned to the sketch of the first four bars most likely early in 1823.

Untill the summer of 1823, most likely July, Beethoven sketched many variants, mostly of the 2nd part of the melody (or as Nottebohm in his Zweite Beethoveniana writes (p.183): Die Melodie musste manche Wandlungen durchmachen, bis die die endgültige Form fand. Namentlich gilt das vom zweiten Theil. Dieser musste noch gefunden werden. [follow 3 music examples of variants on p.183, two on page 184]).

These sketches can be found in the Landsberg 8 table sketchbook (2nd bundle), of which AFAIK very unfortunately no edition or articles with extensive music examples exist (It is in the collection of the Deutsche Staatsbibliothek in Berlin).

Therefore: it did cost Beethoven quite a lot of trouble to compose the Freudenmelodie as we know it. And of course, the transition from the instrumental first 3 movements to the vocal/choral finale was all but an easy one as well.

[Chris]

Interesting coincidence - I was just listening to K 222 the other day and the similarily with the "Ode to Joy" theme struck me immediately. Then this thread got bumped

[Peter]

Other close similarities with the opening notes (not rhythm) of the ode theme are Bach's 'Jesu of man's desiring' and Beethoven's own trio WoO39.

[Michael]

Other close similarities with the opening notes (not rhythm) of the ode theme are Bach's 'Jesu of man's desiring' and Beethoven's own trio WoO39.

Wasn't that an existing hymn that Bach used for the cantata?

[Peter]

Wasn't that an existing hymn that Bach used for the cantata?

Johann Schop composed the chorale melody 'Werde Munter, mein Gemüthe' in 1641 which Bach harmonised and used in his cantata. Would Beethoven have known either the Schop melody or Bach's (now famous) arrangement?

[Roehre]

Johann Schop composed the chorale melody 'Werde Munter, mein Gemüthe' in 1641 which Bach harmonised and used in his cantata. Would Beethoven have known either the Schop melody or Bach's (now famous) arrangement?

Difficult to answer.

The Rhineland was and is mainly Catholic, and Bach cantatas were hardly if at all played outside Leipzig. So it is not likely that Beethoven heard the chorale in his Bonn years in church, or in Vienna through a performance of the cantata in a church.

But for vienna there is an other possibillity. There it was not only Van Swieten who possessed a quite extensive collection of JSBach works (in his case: mainly keyboard works).
At least two other persons within Beethoven's circle admired Bach: Raphael Kiesewetter, professionally a civil servant cum musician cum music-historian (in whose collection many vocal compositions by JSBach could be found), and Archduke Rudolph, whose library contained such works as well (and it was e.g. there, that Beethoven learned from the Flemish-Burgundian polyphonists as well as Palestrina - influencing the Missa solemnis and the late string quartets, especially opus 132).

Beethoven was interested in a planned Bach Gesamtausgabe (see letters dating from 1801 to Hoffmeister) and asked other publishers (like Breitkopf und Härtel) repeatedly for unknown Bach works. The existence of the Hohe Messe must have been known to Beethoven, as he asked more than once for this work, AFAIK without success however.

Therefore it is certaily possible that Beethoven knew either the chorale in an organ setting, or the cantata itself, through the collections of people around him.

[Peter]

Difficult to answer.

The Rhineland was and is mainly Catholic, and Bach cantatas were hardly if at all played outside Leipzig. So it is not likely that Beethoven heard the chorale in his Bonn years in church, or in Vienna through a performance of the cantata in a church.

But for vienna there is an other possibillity. There it was not only Van Swieten who possessed a quite extensive collection of JSBach works (in his case: mainly keyboard works).
At least two other persons within Beethoven's circle admired Bach: Raphael Kiesewetter, professionally a civil servant cum musician cum music-historian (in whose collection many vocal compositions by JSBach could be found), and Archduke Rudolph, whose library contained such works as well (and it was e.g. there, that Beethoven learned from the Flemish-Burgundian polyphonists as well as Palestrina - influencing the Missa solemnis and the late string quartets, especially opus 132).

Beethoven was interested in a planned Bach Gesamtausgabe (see letters dating from 1801 to Hoffmeister) and asked other publishers (like Breitkopf und Härtel) repeatedly for unknown Bach works. The existence of the Hohe Messe must have been known to Beethoven, as he asked more than once for this work, AFAIK without success however.

Therefore it is certaily possible that Beethoven knew either the chorale in an organ setting, or the cantata itself, through the collections of people around him.

Yes strange though the pausity of Bach works in Beethoven's possession - only the Art of Fugue I believe is listed in his estate.

[Chris]

I was just listening to Bastiene und Bastienne and the similarity of the operning of the overture to the opening of the Eroica is indeed obvious.

[Chris]

Not have all the notes in the same order, I guess? Music is replete with broken E-flat major triads, and none has especially reminded me of the Eroica, as this did.

[Michael]

My God! They're everywhere! Run to your houses, fall upon your knees, pray to the gods to intermit the plague!
CAN YOU FACE THE FULL HORROR OF: THE PARALLEL FIFTHS?
(In High Definition with Surround Sound).

[Chris]

Fair enough. Remind me please : does it (Bastiene) also open with two loud orchestral chords, a broken E-flat arpeggio in the 'cellos and basses over a 5/3 "tremolo" in the altos and violins with an unexpected shift to C-sharp in the 'cellos in bar 7?

I'm fairly sure it doesn't.