Symphony #2: Larghetto & Finale question

[euphony131]

Excuse if I sound like an utter neophyte...but is Symphony 2 the only time LvB had a slow mvt in Sonata Form and a final mvt in Rondo Form? I know all the concertos have Rondos for finales, but I can't recall another symphony that does.
I also notice there is no repeat in the "sonata form" of the Larghetto.
Repeats only expected in first mvts?

[Michael]

As far as I understand it, only four of the symphonies have slow movements in strict sonata form: 1, 2 4 and 6.

The Eroica's second movement is a gigantic rondo and Nos. 5,7 and 9 appear to be mixtures of rondo, sonata and variation form.
The slow movement of No. 8 (which isn't even slow) is a bit of an oddity - I see it as sonata form without a development section but I'm no expert.

Six of his last movements are in sonata form: 1,2,4,5,7 and 8.
No. 6 ends with a sonata-rondo. The Eroica's finale could be described as being in variation form and the last movement of the 9th is so complex that even experts disagree on its shape.

[euphony131]

As far as I understand it, only four of the symphonies have slow movements in strict sonata form: 1, 2 4 and 6.

No. 6 ends with a sonata-rondo.[/FONT]

That sonata-rondo is quite confusing to me!
No. 2 is likewise BOTH sonata and rondo.

I've seen it broken down in various different ways by experts.
One says: ABA' CA''B'A''' + Coda (btw, I have no idea what those accent marks are for!)
Or Robert Greenberg will group it into a sonata form:
AB (Exposition) C (Development) AB (Recap) A+Coda (Coda)

Are they both right?
Or both wrong?
It really begs the question: Is there any significant difference between Sonata and Rondo?
Thank you for any input! I am a non-musician and just intensely curious about form.
Cheers!

[Michael]

I'm not a musician either - not even remotely - I can't even read a note of music. But I've been listening to this stuff for over 50 years.

A lot of classical movements veer between sonata-form and rondo and I suppose one of the ways to distinguish a strictly sonata-form movement is by one of your lists above:

Sonata form: AB (Exposition) C (Development based on themes from the Exposition) and then AB (Recap) sometimes followed by a coda. (A and B could mean groups of themes as well as individual ones)

One example of a strictly rondo form could be ABA followed by a brand new theme C and then followed by ABA. There is usually no Development section.

But there are numerous variations to this formula in many works. The finale of Beethoven's 6th is a sonata-rondo which is:
ABA followed by a new theme C as well as some development of themes A and B and then a recap back to AB followed by the coda.

(Excuse all the bold type).

Maybe some of our musicians could weigh in and explain it a bit better?

[euphony131]

I'm not a musician either - not even remotely - I can't even read a note of music. But I've been listening to this stuff for over 50 years.

Sonata form: AB (Exposition) C (Development based on themes from the Exposition) and then AB (Recap) sometimes followed by a coda. (A and B could mean groups of themes as well as individual ones)

One example of a strictly rondo form could be ABA followed by a brand new theme C and then followed by ABA. There is usually no Development section.

Wow, Michael, that's pretty impressive that you've been able to pick so much purely as a listener. And 50 years ago they had no YouTube, no forums, no music podcasts, etc.

I did find this color-coded breakdown of the 4th mvt:



Although as you can see here it is broken down into 100% sonata form. I wish there was a video I could watch along with the color changes. I would love to know if the person grouped the SECOND and FOURTH appearances of "A" into the Development and Coda (I assume so!)

So it seems most people break it down as PURE SONATA FORM regardless of "A" being brought back or not. It's that "A" repeating that makes it a (kind of) Rondo, right?

[Peter]

Sonata form is very fluid and rarely conforms to the rules. It wasn't until 1848 when Czerny in his 'School of Practical Composition' first defined an analytical framework for the sonata, by which time it was no longer the dominant form. So Beethoven's 2nd symphony only loosely complies with the strict definitions. I'd say the slow movement is in sonata form, but the finale is a Rondo.

[Michael]

Beethoven's 2nd symphony only loosely complies with the strict definitions. I'd say the slow movement is in sonata form, but the finale is a Rondo.

The first and second movements of No. 2 are in sonata form and so is the finale; all three movements have clearly defined development sections and recapitulations.

The finale of No. 2 has a long and unorthodox coda - so maybe this distorts the shape. Something similar occurs in the finale of No. 8 which contains a very lengthy coda - so long that some musicologists have described the movement as sonata-form with two development sections!

Anyway, to my ears (and regretfully not my eyes), the last movements of 2 and 8 are in perfect sonata form.


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[Harvey]

I suspect calculus is far easier to understand. It is a nice graphic, but I would not know what it means. I'd think that development should come first. What is to develop after an exposition. Seems backward to me. I have heard of coda but thought that was something in popular music. Maybe it is a general musical term that applies to all music. Ok, just looked it up, coda is a conclusion. makes sense then that it is at the end.

[euphony131]

Anyway, to my ears (and regretfully not my eyes), the last movements of 2 and 8 are in perfect sonata form.

I'll defer to the Eastman School's analysis: The rustic principal theme begins with unison comic-opera gestures: a two-note slur mimicking a stumble, and a trill imitating laughter (0:00-0:09). This mimetic opening serves as the motivic basis for the whole movement, and takes on a rondo-like function.

This same theme begins both the Development and the Coda, thus giving the finale that rondo-like structure: AB -- AC -- AB -- A+Coda
I also hear new material in the "AC" (Development) which corresponds to a Rondo.
So I guess we're right back to where we started.
It's BOTH Ronda and Sonata.
But as Peter mentioned the Sonata form is very fluid. So I guess "Rondo-Sonata" was a term critics came up with to try and categorize a particular variant?

Here I quote further from the Eastman website, you can follow the hyperlinks to the specific passage of music:
development (1:26-2:27) goes quickly through many keys, shifting constantly between major and minor modes, all tied together with a pervasive “chuckling” motive. The expansive 149-bar coda (3:53-6:08), which once again picks up developmental techniques before coming to an inevitable and exhilarating conclusion

[Michael]

Here's a link to a performance of the final movement of the Second Symphony.

Exposition starts at 7 seconds, Development section at 1.30, Recapitulation at 2.30 and Coda at 3.50. (Approximate times).

I think it sounds a bit like a rondo because the main theme starts both the development and the long coda.

But I have never thought of it in that way because I don't hear a new theme in the development section (although Beethoven does pull that stunt in the Eroica's first movement.)

George Grove certainly thought of the 2nd's finale as a modified rondo - so who am I to contradict him?

Either way, it's a great piece of music! Although, I'm prone to earworms and the damn thing has been going through my head since I came upon this thread!

Beethoven's Symphony No. 2, 4th movement | conducted by Paavo J?rvi - YouTube


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[Schenkerian]

It's an amazing piece of music!! I never tire of hearing it. A splendid orchestra, but Paavo, it's too fast. It isn't Rossini!! The structure is lost if it's speedy.

And I got mal de mer from watching that editing. Why do the Germans over-produce televised classical music performances?

I think the 2nd movement (Larghetto) works much better with Paavo at the helm; it's a glorious hymn. And such a translucent performance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-94jBcYUWwY

My earliest introduction to this symphony (under-rated in the maestro's oeuvre, IMO) was from a film made in 1950; George Cukor's "Born Yesterday" with Judy Holliday and William Holden. The plot concerns an empty-headed woman who lives with a brute of a tycoon who brings her to Washington to play corrupt political games. She embarrasses him with her lack of social etiquette and he hires the bookish William Holden to educate her. Holden takes her around Washington, to all the monuments, and then to an open-air concert of the National Symphony Orchestra. The Larghetto of Beethoven's Symphony is playing and the magnificent Garson Kanin script, beautifully delivered by Holden, explains the great glory of Beethoven (whom she calls Beet-Hooven). She falls for Beethoven and Holden and finds the strength to leave her old life and brutal partner.

[Michael]

It's an amazing piece of music!! I never tire of hearing it. A splendid orchestra, but Paavo, it's too fast. It isn't Rossini!! The structure is lost if it's speedy.

And I got mal de mer from watching that editing. Why do the Germans over-produce televised classical music performances?

I think the 2nd movement (Larghetto) works much better with Paavo at the helm; it's a glorious hymn. And such a translucent performance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-94jBcYUWwY

I just picked the first performance that came up on Youtube. It's a bit too fast for my taste also.
"Born Yesterday" is a film I've always wanted to see. Must really make an effort now if it's got the Beethoven movement in it!

[euphony131]

The Larghetto of Beethoven's Symphony is playing and the magnificent Garson Kanin script, beautifully delivered by Holden, explains the great glory of Beethoven (whom she calls Beet-Hooven). She falls for Beethoven and Holden and finds the strength to leave her old life and brutal partner.

OMG! That sounds awesome!
Had no idea there was film that used the Larghetto to such effect!
Learn something new every day. Thanks for sharing.

And, yes, it is such a wonderful work. Only recently have I gotten to appreciate it more. It and the 1st Symphony are vastly under-rated.

[euphony131]

I think it sounds a bit like a rondo because the main theme starts both the development and the long coda.

But I have never thought of it in that way because I don't hear a new theme in the development section (although Beethoven does pull that stunt in the Eroica's first movement.)

George Grove certainly thought of the 2nd's finale as a modified rondo - so who am I to contradict him?

Either way, it's a great piece of music! Although, I'm prone to earworms and the damn thing has been going through my head since I came upon this thread!

I think your "bit like a rondo" descriptor hits it on the head!
And actually you are right -- I don't believe there's a "new theme" in the Development (or "C" section).
There's a new motif (motive?) but, oh boy, then we go down that rabbit hole of motifs vs. themes vs. subjects and all the divisions in-between. Eek!

Your discerning ear acquired in an internet-less time does make me go "Whoa," Micheal.
It makes me think of JWN Sullivan's book, Beethoven and His Spiritual Development, wherein the author shows tremendous insight about the music but at a time when even recordings were extremely rare and your main exposure (as a listener) was through performances.
Perhaps a good analogy would be London cab drivers. There was once The Knowledge, acquired through exhaustive experience, which then became like a part of you. But nowadays everyone uses GPS, and that part of the brain seems to have decayed.
Suffice to say: I don't have The Knowledge.

[Michael]

..........It makes me think of JWN Sullivan's book, Beethoven and His Spiritual Development, wherein the author shows tremendous insight about the music but at a time when even recordings were extremely rare and your main exposure (as a listener) was through performances.

That is one of my favourite books about Beethoven. I must have re-read it umpteen times over the years. One great thing about it is the fact there is no musical notation whatsoever in it but Sullivan still gets his message across.