Chopin: Polonaise-Fantasie, Op. 61

[Schenkerian]

This version by Pollini is easily the best and I've listened to many over the course of the last few days. There's something strong yet lyrical and tender in his playing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qrCYI0300Q

As I listen I want to find some influence from Beethoven. Surely you would expect this given that the two were virtually contemporaneous. On the surface Chopin seems a world away from Beethoven yet there must be a connection. The chromatic harmonies perhaps? Not the aesthetic and form as Chopin's was a departure from the more radical, longer form Beethoven of his last years. When Beethoven died Chopin was 17. He would have known Beethoven's music inside out and upside down, which makes Chopin's style all the more radical!!

What are your thoughts?

[Sorrano]

I agree. I've played a number of Chopin's works (easier ones) and some of Beethoven's. I find that Chopin's music has a flow to it, perhaps rhythmically and harmonically, that has an addictive quality to it. It's easy to be pulled into it, especially from a performer's point of view. Something you might consider exploring if you haven't already, are the bagatelles of Beethoven. These are in a language of its own, far from the Sonatas. You might find a similar spirit in the music.

[Schenkerian]

I've taken a listen to the sets of Bagatelles and the only set remotely likely to have influenced Chopin would have been the last, Op. 126, in my opinion. However, it seems to me that these Beethovenian works are still 'classical' in their sound world, so I can only conclude that Chopin was influenced by Liszt, Schumann and Mendelssohn. Quite remarkable departures from LvB.

[Sorrano]

I've taken a listen to the sets of Bagatelles and the only set remotely likely to have influenced Chopin would have been the last, Op. 126, in my opinion. However, it seems to me that these Beethovenian works are still 'classical' in their sound world, so I can only conclude that Chopin was influenced by Liszt, Schumann and Mendelssohn. Quite remarkable departures from LvB.

No, I don't suppose Beethoven influenced Chopin much, but I see a similarity in a unique approach to the musical language in the bagatelles as I do in Chopin's works. In both sets there is an intimacy that you don't find, for example, in the bigger works of Beethoven.

[Chris]

No, I don't suppose Beethoven influenced Chopin much, but I see a similarity in a unique approach to the musical language in the bagatelles as I do in Chopin's works. In both sets there is an intimacy that you don't find, for example, in the bigger works of Beethoven.

Having played a lot of the Beethoven bagatelles and Chopin works, I see what you mean with this, Sorrano. I have only attempted a few of the larger Beethoven piano works, but there is something in the bagatelles and not in them that you can find in common with Chopin.

[Peter]

This version by Pollini is easily the best and I've listened to many over the course of the last few days. There's something strong yet lyrical and tender in his playing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qrCYI0300Q

As I listen I want to find some influence from Beethoven. Surely you would expect this given that the two were virtually contemporaneous. On the surface Chopin seems a world away from Beethoven yet there must be a connection. The chromatic harmonies perhaps? Not the aesthetic and form as Chopin's was a departure from the more radical, longer form Beethoven of his last years. When Beethoven died Chopin was 17. He would have known Beethoven's music inside out and upside down, which makes Chopin's style all the more radical!!

What are your thoughts?

I don't think Chopin had great sympathy for Beethoven's music, in keeping with many musicians in France (Berlioz being an exception). Chopin was only known to have liked Beethoven's Op.26 Sonata and the funeral march must surely have influenced him in his sonata no.2. He was influenced by the nocturnes of John Field and by Italian opera, particularly Bellini.

[Schenkerian]

I had no idea that Chopin was unsympathetic to Beethoven!! Italian opera provided a lyrical influence, yes, but there's also Liszt in this equation and he, of course, revered Beethoven. I cannot think of Chopin without Liszt - particularly the chromaticism and virtuosic passagework. Ultimately, I think of Liszt as the more interesting of the two - but he did have a MUCH longer life, so this is only to be expected. Just using the Piano Concertos of those two, Chopin and Liszt - the former's syrupy and not well orchestrated (perhaps he would have done better using a more Beethovenian model), the latter's two muscular and virtuosic. And better orchestrated. You do find mannerisms of Chopin in the Liszt, though he carried little of Chopin forward in perpetuity it seems to me. He just couldn't help himself being the pyrotechnical show-off!!

[Peter]

I had no idea that Chopin was unsympathetic to Beethoven!! Italian opera provided a lyrical influence, yes, but there's also Liszt in this equation and he, of course, revered Beethoven. I cannot think of Chopin without Liszt - particularly the chromaticism and virtuosic passagework. Ultimately, I think of Liszt as the more interesting of the two - but he did have a MUCH longer life, so this is only to be expected. Just using the Piano Concertos of those two, Chopin and Liszt - the former's syrupy and not well orchestrated (perhaps he would have done better using a more Beethovenian model), the latter's two muscular and virtuosic. And better orchestrated. You do find mannerisms of Chopin in the Liszt, though he carried little of Chopin forward in perpetuity it seems to me. He just couldn't help himself being the pyrotechnical show-off!!

Indeed Liszt greatly admired Beethoven, interestingly though Chopin also didn't like Liszt's music! I can't think of one without the other either, probably because we were taught to remember their names as 'Shopping List'!! I do like Chopin's concertos but I agree that they are not interesting from an orchestral viewpoint. One of the most fascinating Liszt pieces is Totentanz for piano and orchestra which is really a piano concerto in all but name, I also like the 1st concerto in Eb.

[Sorrano]

I think the goals of Liszt's music, compared with Chopin, are entirely different. Chopin, on one hand, wrote music that is much more intimate and personal, while Liszt's music is more grandiose, intended to wow a much bigger audience. When playing Chopin's music I find a more personal attachment than I do with Liszt, which is why I compared the Beethoven bagatelles as I have the same general reaction.

[Schenkerian]

Yes, Liszt's music is more 'theatrical' but he uses some of the harmonic language and musical tropes that Chopin did - just more flamboyantly. Of course, Liszt was more likely influenced by Chopin than the reverse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfDmUk7ie6s

I can't believe that Chopin probably also over-looked Schubert as an influence; his music had that same lyrical mien. Perhaps the Austrian's music was little disseminated during Chopin's lifetime. If Chopin was inspired by John Field it will be one of the few times in music history, then, that a major composer was influenced by a minor one!!??

[Peter]

Yes, Liszt's music is more 'theatrical' but he uses some of the harmonic language and musical tropes that Chopin did - just more flamboyantly. Of course, Liszt was more likely influenced by Chopin than the reverse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfDmUk7ie6s

I can't believe that Chopin probably also over-looked Schubert as an influence; his music had that same lyrical mien. Perhaps the Austrian's music was little disseminated during Chopin's lifetime. If Chopin was inspired by John Field it will be one of the few times in music history, then, that a major composer was influenced by a minor one!!??

I think it happened more than we generally realise. For example, Dussek, Cramer, Viotti, Cherubini and Mehul are just some of the lesser composers who influenced Beethoven.

[Sorrano]

Those composers we consider as lesser or minor were probably higher esteemed by their peers that what we do today. As for Chopin's influences, I'm not certain that the French musicians were particularly enamored with the Germanic/Austrian music.

[Peter]

Those composers we consider as lesser or minor were probably higher esteemed by their peers that what we do today. As for Chopin's influences, I'm not certain that the French musicians were particularly enamored with the Germanic/Austrian music.

Indeed, but posterity can be cruel. Bach and Schubert both could easily have suffered a similar fate, indeed Bach was quite a museum piece when Beethoven was growing up so he was very fortunate in having Neefe instruct him with the 48 preludes and fugues which he could play by heart aged 13.

[Schenkerian]

I can't believe that some of those lesser composers would have been esteemed by great composers who would, or should, have known better. A cursory listen to much of their music tells why it generally didn't survive in perpetuity. A seriously trained ear or eye would have told them back then, I'm fairly certain. Beethoven knew Rossini was schlock as do I!! I've read quite a few books on Beethoven and have no recollection of those names you mention, Peter, having been mentioned. It was mostly Neefe, Mozart and Haydn. Some references, of course, to Bach.

[Schenkerian]

Those composers we consider as lesser or minor were probably higher esteemed by their peers that what we do today. As for Chopin's influences, I'm not certain that the French musicians were particularly enamored with the Germanic/Austrian music.

Ok, but that excludes Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Brahms and the Austro-Hungarian Liszt! That doesn't explain Berlioz, though, who loved Beethoven.