Beethoven - the greatest composer in the world?

[Frohlich]

Originally posted by Rod:
In any case, do you think that if I started a MP3 site based on the best of those guys output combined you would get more interesting music than on my Handel site? I think not.

A question for Rodders,

Listening to Handel's organ concerto this am, 'Kein Deutsche Himmel'. I was wondering how the title translates, whether it meant one of the following;

1. There are no Germans in heaven.

2. There is no German heaven, that is to say, heaven is like the United Nations for everyone and doesn't belong to any one country.

3. There is no heaven for Germany because of the mess they made on earth.

4. German's cannot go to heaven.


My German is not that strong, but it is interesting what different meanings can be extracted from a very simple sentence.
Of course this applies with great force when one is translating a foreign language and it is not the mother tongue, but even in English, if you take for instance, the Sonnets of Shakespeare, the densness and ambiguity of meaning is just mind boggling.
By the way on Shakespeare, I wonder how on earth translators have translated him into say Chinese. What an incredible thought!




[This message has been edited by Frohlich (edited October 18, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Frohlich:
A question for Rodders,

Listening to Handel's organ concerto this am, 'Kein Deutsche Himmel'. I was wondering how the title translates, whether it meant one of the following;

1. There are no Germans in heaven.

2. There is no German heaven, that is to say, heaven is like the United Nations for everyone and doesn't belong to any one country.

3. There is no heaven for Germany because of the mess they made on earth.

4. German's cannot go to heaven.


My German is not that strong, but it is interesting what different meanings can be extracted from a very simple sentence.
Of course this applies with great force when one is translating a foreign language and it is not the mother tongue, but even in English, if you take for instance, the Sonnets of Shakespeare, the densness and ambiguity of meaning is just mind boggling.
By the way on Shakespeare, I wonder how on earth translators have translated him into say Chinese. What an incredible thought!


[This message has been edited by Frohlich (edited October 18, 2003).]

I don't know the context but perhaps it is a reference to there being many German states instead of one nation?

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frohlich:
A question for Rodders,

Listening to Handel's organ concerto this am, 'Kein Deutsche Himmel'.
[This message has been edited by Frohlich (edited October 18, 2003).]

I have never heard of this concerto by Handel, certainly with a title such as that one. Handel never titled his concertos that's for sure. Perhaps you are confusing some other composers work as Handel's?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Frohlich]

Originally posted by Rod:
I have never heard of this concerto by Handel, certainly with a title such as that one. Handel never titled his concertos that's for sure. Perhaps you are confusing some other composers work as Handel's?

Rod,
Perhaps you are right,I was probably getting it confused with another piece I was listening to this morning on Radio 3.

The pieces I heard along with Handel were,

Johann Joseph Fux, Serenade a8.1st suite.

and Beethoven's Violin Sonata no.8 in G, Opus 30 no. 3.

I was interested in Peter's interpretation of 'Himmel' as unity, which sounds right to me. And also the title as referring to there being many German states instead of one nation. Interesting comment Peter. Thankyou.



[This message has been edited by Frohlich (edited October 18, 2003).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Frohlich:
A question for Rodders,

Listening to Handel's organ concerto this am, 'Kein Deutsche Himmel'. I was wondering how the title translates, whether it meant one of the following;

1. There are no Germans in heaven.

2. There is no German heaven, that is to say, heaven is like the United Nations for everyone and doesn't belong to any one country.

3. There is no heaven for Germany because of the mess they made on earth.

4. German's cannot go to heaven.


My German is not that strong, but it is interesting what different meanings can be extracted from a very simple sentence.
Of course this applies with great force when one is translating a foreign language and it is not the mother tongue, but even in English, if you take for instance, the Sonnets of Shakespeare, the densness and ambiguity of meaning is just mind boggling.
By the way on Shakespeare, I wonder how on earth translators have translated him into say Chinese. What an incredible thought!


[This message has been edited by Frohlich (edited October 18, 2003).]

Altavista's babel site translates this as "No German sky."

[melvyn]

Originally posted by Frohlich:

Rod,
Perhaps you are right,I was probably getting it confused with another piece I was listening to this morning on Radio 3.

The pieces I heard along with Handel were:

Beethoven's Violin Sonata, Opus no 3.

It seems that confusion abounds. Beethoven's Op.3 is a String Trio, not a Violin Sonata!

Melvyn.

[Frohlich]

Originally posted by melvyn:
It seems that confusion abounds. Beethoven's Op.3 is a String Trio, not a Violin Sonata!

Melvyn.

Thankyou Melvyn,
You are a pretty sharp fellow, I am impressed! I have now corrected my entry, it appears I omitted the Opus no.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Wow the whole cycle ? just how many hours of opera is this? How was Tristan Und Isolde?

The 4 operas of the Ring generally take 14 hours or so, but with intermissions the entire time spent in the opera house may be 18 hours. This will be during four evenings spread over the course of a week. With the expansive conducting of James Levine, a little slower than most Wagner conductors, the basic length may go closer to 15 hours and the whole thing to 19 hours.

I did mention here that I would be going to see Tristan, but because of recent opinions expressed by some posters here, and in view that this is really a Beethoven site, I have refrained from posting a review here. If anyone is interested in reading my review you can go to the URL below and then scroll up to the first posting in the thread.

http: //groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=bmulc4%24qtlvr%241%40ID-192001.news.uni-berlin.de&prev=/groups%3Fgroup%3Dhumanities.music.composers.wagner




[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited October 19, 2003).]

[spaceray]

Well I like your reviews of Wagner's operas and read the one on Tristan at the Wagner site.Very sad about Ben Heppner's voice I had heard that he had been having some medical problems.Singing Wagner is hard on the voice .And what a great pity about the set,I'm not surprised the estate of the good Mrs.Harrington will sue.I always hate those minimalest opera sets ,I like a spectacular set and love it when they use machines and have monsters and make weather.

[Frohlich]

[quote]Originally posted by Frohlich:
[b]

Originally posted by Frohlich:
Sorry, I posted a reply to Chaszz but it just seemed to disappear, it didn't enter for some reason.
Now I am having problems deleting.

[Frohlich]

Chaszz,

Reading youre reviews on Tristan and the Lawsuit Between the Harrington Estate and the Met prompted a few thoughts.
Obviously I cannot comment on this particular case but in general terms I have noticed that some artistic institutions have a rather cavalier approach to the use of donors money when considering whether to stage traditional or modern productions.
I do not know how the Royal Shakespeare Company in Britian gets on for funds from the public, but I would have thought that generally speaking they would have been disappointed if they had given money to improve the standard of productions and what they get is second rate actors performing in dumbed down productions that have a ridiculous and unrelated moderns spin to them and firmly eschew traditional methods and productions. I suspect it is a wider problem in America where for a start the level of donations are probably stratospheric compared to Britian where rich people tend to buy up football clubs rather than supporting artistic institutions.