Beethoven - the greatest composer in the world?

[clara]

Would you actually say that he was a genius like mozart, or not that great. as after all, some of his works are based on material from mozart's haydn's,bach's and even handel's!

[spaceray]

Yes,Beethoven was the greatest composer of all time!

[Pastorali]

The history saw many great composers - but just one VAN BEETHOVEN.

[Frohlich]

Originally posted by clara:
Would you actually say that he was a genius like mozart, or not that great. as after all, some of his works are based on material from mozart's haydn's,bach's and even handel's!

Well then, I suppose we could say that Mozart was not that great because his music is based on Salieri, Bach got everything from Buxtehude, Handel got everything from Corelli, so what does this prove?.

They are all creative geniuses in their own right, but Beethoven is head and shoulders above them because he used the right shampoo!!

Amalie.



[This message has been edited by Frohlich (edited October 13, 2003).]

[melvyn]

Originally posted by clara:
Would you actually say that he was a genius like mozart, or not that great.

Beethoven not that great?? Is this a wind up or something?

Melvyn.

[Peter]

Originally posted by clara:
Would you actually say that he was a genius like mozart, or not that great. as after all, some of his works are based on material from mozart's haydn's,bach's and even handel's!

Every composer learns from his predecessors, greatness does not exist in a vacuum! Handel was notorious for inserting whole sections of another composers work, it was common practice of the time - this doesn't mean he wasn't supremely great. Like all great composers it isn't so much the material as what they do with it. The Eroica theme is a good example of a pretty simple melody (Mozart used the same theme in Bastien und Bastienne) that any music student could come up with - but just listen to what Beethoven does with it, then ask yourself the same question that you posed - the answer should be obvious!

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'Man know thyself'

[SR]

Not sure what answer you thought you'd get on a Beethoven website. Beethoven would be in nearly anyones top 3. 1st, 2nd, 3rd ? Whats the difference ? There have been thousands of quality comnposers. Is there a new cash award for 1st place now ? If Beethoven is #1 for you thats a valid view. If he's number two or three thats also a valid view.

Regards

Steve

[Rodders]

Originally posted by Peter:
Every composer learns from his predecessors, greatness does not exist in a vacuum! Handel was notorious for inserting whole sections of another composers work, it was common practice of the time - this doesn't mean he wasn't supremely great. Like all great composers it isn't so much the material as what they do with it. The Eroica theme is a good example of a pretty simple melody (Mozart used the same theme in Bastien und Bastienne) that any music student could come up with - but just listen to what Beethoven does with it, then ask yourself the same question that you posed - the answer should be obvious!

It was rare indeed for Handel to just lift a piece and insert it lock stock and barrel as it was originally. Typically he borrowed only thematic material. No composer sounds quite like Handel regardless of Handel's sources. Try spending a few hours listening to the tedious music of those composers that Handel borrowed from, whereas Handel's effort is always flawless.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Rodders:
Try spending a few hours listening to the tedious music of those composers that Handel borrowed from, whereas Handel's effort is always flawless.

You must mean the "tedious" music of Martini ,Pergolesi,Lotti,Clementi,Cherubini,
Lully Couperin,Rameau......

[Rod]

Originally posted by spaceray:
You must mean the "tedious" music of Martini ,Pergolesi,Lotti,Clementi,Cherubini,
Lully Couperin,Rameau......

I doubt if Handel had heard the works of Cherubini considering he was born the year after Handel died. Also Clementi was just a little kid when Handel died.

You listen to any Baroque piece by any other composer at random and you will catch the odd phrase that is also to be found in a Handel piece, but the chances are he never even heard most of these works. The fact is that at this time musical themes were passed around and around without a second thought, kind of like jazz 'standards' I suppose. Only Handel seems to have been put under the spotlight in this respect, but I guarantee the others were all doing it, all to less effect. Bach included. Either way there is no baroque composer that can guarantee the listener such a high standard of entertainment every time.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Rod:
I doubt if Handel had heard the works of Cherubini considering he was born the year after Handel died. Also Clementi was just a little kid when Handel died.

Well I guess I had better do my research before I try to jab a stick in your eye again,I might have known at least to use correct information.Better luck next time.

[Rod]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Well I guess I had better do my research before I try to jab a stick in your eye again,I might have known at least to use correct information.Better luck next time.

In any case, do you think that if I started a MP3 site based on the best of those guys output combined you would get more interesting music than on my Handel site? I think not.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[spaceray]

There is no better Handel music than that from the collection of Rod Corkin !

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
In any case, do you think that if I started a MP3 site based on the best of those guys output combined you would get more interesting music than on my Handel site? I think not.

I have pondered this advice and taken it to heart. I have therefore purchased tickets for a Ring cycle at the Met next spring.

[spaceray]

Wow the whole cycle ? just how many hours of opera is this? How was Tristan Und Isolde?