Bettina's Secret

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
You're giving up the notion that the Immortal Beloved was AB! I remember you were rather positive that was the one! Wasn't Josephine Brunsvik another prime candidate? We all change our minds from time to time. I for one still don't know who it was and never will although it's interesting to speculate.

Well for some time now I have been of this opinion. I think I only claimed that a stronger case could be made for AB than anyone else - however Rod and others have persuaded me that she is unlikely - it seems we'll never know for certain though! I agree the speculation is fun and we are at least learning about all these fascinating women!


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Amalie:

I personally feel the Letters could have been a verbal Fantasia on a theme. And of course the letters encapsulate the quintessential romantic temperament.
Dearest Ludwig.

No, I'm sure the letter was for real. There's not enough fantasy in the letter for it to be a ..er.. fantasy, this letter deals with real circumstances.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

Originally posted by Amalie:

Listening to Jeremy Siepmann's Naxos, CD - Life and Works of Beethoven, I was struck by comments that he made to the effect that the 'Immortal Beloved' letter could well have been an entirely fictional idealization of Beethoven's view of womanhood and of his platonic or romantic/spiritual yearnings. It was not addressed to anyone and I personally think that B never intended to send it. The letter was almost like an aide de memior for Beethoven himself of everything he przed and admired in women and served as a source of inspiration for his music and which he kept near him to refer to.
I believe the letters are not simply outpourings about his situation at the time, they also present his view on love in general.


I personally feel the Letters could have been a verbal Fantasia on a theme. And of course the letters encapsulate the quintessential romantic temperament.
Dearest Ludwig.

I've read this same idea that the letters were pure fantasy. That's a little hard for me to believe as it just doesn't seem to fit what Beethoven would have done. I don't know if he would have written make believe letters to a 'perfect woman'. It seems to me that he wrote it to someone who at the time he was really in love with but was perhaps unattainable. It has too many 'real elements' in it. That's just my take on it though. Thanks for the antedote on Uncle Ludwig, good story!



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Lobkowitz]

Originally posted by Joy:
I've read this same idea that the letters were pure fantasy. That's a little hard for me to believe as it just doesn't seem to fit what Beethoven would have done. I don't know if he would have written make believe letters to a 'perfect woman'. It seems to me that he wrote it to someone who at the time he was really in love with but was perhaps unattainable. It has too many 'real elements' in it. That's just my take on it though. Thanks for the antedote on Uncle Ludwig, good story!

In my opinion both possibilities can be right (It's not real person OR fantasy, it's real person AND fantasy). If you read the letters carefully there's absolutely no doubt that whoever wrote these letters had one particular person in mind. There are numerous references to events and details shared by the writer and the reader. And yet it is only fantasy because he never posted the letters... they are just another way of expressing feelings (an alternative approach to scetches for a piano sonata???). One important piece of evidence to support the fantasy theory is the fact there's no name of the recipient... a natural and obvious beginning of a letter meant to be posted!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Lobkowitz:
In my opinion both possibilities can be right (It's not real person OR fantasy, it's real person AND fantasy). If you read the letters carefully there's absolutely no doubt that whoever wrote these letters had one particular person in mind. There are numerous references to events and details shared by the writer and the reader. And yet it is only fantasy because he never posted the letters... they are just another way of expressing feelings (an alternative approach to scetches for a piano sonata???). One important piece of evidence to support the fantasy theory is the fact there's no name of the recipient... a natural and obvious beginning of a letter meant to be posted!

Yet he goes into mundane details elsewhere, why bother at all writing a fantasy letter discussing coaches breaking down and his using her pencil, even if the person is real? It occured to me as to whether the first part of the letter as we have it was in fact the first part of the letter Beethoven wrote. Beethoven was writing over a number of days, clearly each section begins with the date and no reference to the person, as you say. Perhaps there was a section or sections before the first one as we have it today that may have given more info in this respect? Purely a shot in the dark here though.

It may have been in both parties interest for a degree of anonymity to be kept for clearly a serious situation was being discussed, though not his having an affair with the wife of his best friend and indeed mother of that friends child as Solomon suggests! None of this is implied in the letter, in which Beethoven sees the relationship moraly just, whatever the problem. What writer of Fidelio, what persistant enemy of Karls 'inconstant' mother could possibly consider such behavior moral? He even talks about living with the woman!! No way Mr Solomon.

I still believe the letter was designed to be sent in any case, it could have been sent and then given back which in itself would have made the letter more worthy to Beethoven of being kept. All guesswork though. But these things are not important, what is important is that Solomons largely accepted theory is totally slanderous to Beethoven's name.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited August 06, 2003).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Lobkowitz:
In my opinion both possibilities can be right (It's not real person OR fantasy, it's real person AND fantasy). If you read the letters carefully there's absolutely no doubt that whoever wrote these letters had one particular person in mind. There are numerous references to events and details shared by the writer and the reader. And yet it is only fantasy because he never posted the letters... they are just another way of expressing feelings (an alternative approach to scetches for a piano sonata???). One important piece of evidence to support the fantasy theory is the fact there's no name of the recipient... a natural and obvious beginning of a letter meant to be posted!

Do we know for sure the letter was never mailed? Maybe it was mailed and returned and Beethoven just kept it. Maybe there was a name attached and that part was merely lost.
I do agree he had one particular person in his mind and she was real. We'll never know for sure.


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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:

Yet he goes into mundane details elsewhere, why bother at all writing a fantasy letter discussing coaches breaking down and his using her pencil, even if the person is real? It occured to me as to whether the first part of the letter as we have it was in fact the first part of the letter Beethoven wrote. Beethoven was writing over a number of days, clearly each section begins with the date and no reference to the person, as you say. Perhaps there was a section or sections before the first one as we have it today that may have given more info in this respect? Purely a shot in the dark here though.

It may have been in both parties interest for a degree of anonymity to be kept for clearly a serious situation was being discussed, though not his having an affair with the wife of his best friend and indeed mother of that friends child as Solomon suggests! None of this is implied in the letter, in which Beethoven sees the relationship moraly just, whatever the problem. What writer of Fidelio, what persistant enemy of Karls 'inconstant' mother could possibly consider such behavior moral? He even talks about living with the woman!! No way Mr Solomon.

I still believe the letter was designed to be sent in any case, it could have been sent and then given back which in itself would have made the letter more worthy to Beethoven of being kept. All guesswork though. But these things are not important, what is important is that Solomons largely accepted theory is totally slanderous to Beethoven's name.

Knowing how disorganized Beethoven was it wouldn't surprise me if part of the letter was mislaid or lost as was some of his music.
I agree Solomon's theory is totally preposterous. If the letter was sent and given back (I assume you mean by the Immortal Beloved) I'm not sure beethoven would have kept it as it could've hurt too much that she rejected him by sending the letters back. All conjection though. I can understand him stuffing them in a drawer in his desk and then forgetting about them giving his forgetfulness nature.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited August 06, 2003).]

[spaceray]

Perhaps he asked for the letter return.

[Lobkowitz]

Originally posted by Rod:

It may have been in both parties interest for a degree of anonymity to be kept for clearly a serious situation was being discussed, though not his having an affair with the wife of his best friend and indeed mother of that friends child as Solomon suggests! None of this is implied in the letter, in which Beethoven sees the relationship moraly just, whatever the problem. What writer of Fidelio, what persistant enemy of Karls 'inconstant' mother could possibly consider such behavior moral? He even talks about living with the woman!! No way Mr Solomon.

I still believe the letter was designed to be sent in any case, it could have been sent and then given back which in itself would have made the letter more worthy to Beethoven of being kept. All guesswork though. But these things are not important, what is important is that Solomons largely accepted theory is totally slanderous to Beethoven's name.

The Antonie Brentano theory fits the picture I think. Imagine B in love with a married woman and he knows it's impossible. So his troubled heart is relieved by writing would-be love letters never meant to be posted (perhaps A didn't know B's feelings?). Two things support the theory. First of all the letters have an underlying assumption that "this can never be" . So it could be AB. And B's diaries refer to a woman "A" and "T" which could be Antonie and her nickname Toni.

As for rejecting Solomons theory for being slanderous is of course complete nonsense. B was a human being and human beings do things like that!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Lobkowitz:
The Antonie Brentano theory fits the picture I think. Imagine B in love with a married woman and he knows it's impossible. So his troubled heart is relieved by writing would-be love letters never meant to be posted (perhaps A didn't know B's feelings?). Two things support the theory. First of all the letters have an underlying assumption that "this can never be" . So it could be AB. And B's diaries refer to a woman "A" and "T" which could be Antonie and her nickname Toni.

As for rejecting Solomons theory for being slanderous is of course complete nonsense. B was a human being and human beings do things like that!

There are many reasons why it 'never can be'. There could have been an affair but marriage was refused by the womans father. This could easily have been the case given Beethoven's taste for noblewomen. And Beethoven would not allow himself to have the relationship develop out of wedlock that's for sure. Hence the frustration apparent in the letter. Perhaps there is the possiblity that the woman could have been married but neglegted and/or abused by the husband - but this would not apply to the accepted theory as Beethoven had undying admiration for the husband, by his own words. But back to this other hypothesis, Beethoven could see his intervention as just in such a case even if she was married, but he still would be demanding a divorce and remariage that seems not to be forthcomming due to whatever circumstance. But there is no indication of this hypothesis in the letter. Just remember the idea of marriage is fundamental to Beethoven's concept of a relationship. The business about 'A's and 'T's proves nothing.

If 'slander' is nonsence, how about 'absolute hypocrite'? For this is what Beethoven was if Solomon is correct.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited August 07, 2003).]

[Peter]

Interesting article on Bettina http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/featu...027791,00.html

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'Man know thyself'

[Amalie]

Further to our readings on Bettina, I would like to add the terms she laid down to Arnim before marriage.
She agreed to marry Arnim on condition that he promise never to be jealous of Goethe and that she could continue to pursue music, presumably not as a career, but as an active amateur.
Arnim could at the same time continue with his literary work to the benefit of both. A life-long acquaintance observed that he believed that she did not marry Arnim for love but our of respect, since Arnim had honoured her with the offer of becoming the mother of his children.
Arnim's promise never to be jealous of her relationship with Goethe, meant that she would be free to maintain her relationship with Geothe with her husband's 'specific' consent. However, her decision also meant that she would have to give up both her independence and a career in music.
Bettina probably believed that she could keep alive the friendship and spiritual and musical connection with Beethoven from afar, as she had done with Goethe, through correspondence and the occasional visit to Vienna. She had already written two letters to Beethoven by the time she and Arnim married, and Beethoven had answered her at least once.
Bettina and Arnim married in March 1811.
They set up house in Berlin. In the letter to Goethe she described her initial happiness in the early months of the marriage. In August she and Arnim took a belated honeymoon. On their way to her hometown of Frankfurt, they stopped in Weinmar where Goethe lived. In an art gallery she and Goethe's wife Christiane quarrelled. Christiane tore off Bettina's glasses, threw them on the floor breaking them, and loudly and publicly demanded that Bettina end all communications with her husband. Goethe severed all correspondence and consensual communication with Bettina until after his wife's death five years later. Bettina and Arnim returned to Berlin at the end of December. She was then four months pregnant.

There is at least one plausable answer as to what may have happened to all the letters from Bettina to Beethoven and the unfounded letters from Beethoven to Bettina. All the letters that she sent to Goethe and recovered from his estate were meticulously preserved by her for posterity. There are, however, two significant gaps. One is a multi-part letter she sent to Goethe after the sexual encounter she may have had with him in Teplitz in 1810. It was referred to in his existing reply. The other gap is the last part of her continuing letter to Goethe just where it begins to describe her meeting with Beethoven in Vienna and what transpired between them there.
If the missing portions of her letters to Goethe were destroyed by her to shield them from her family, one could equally surmise that she destroyed her Beethoven correspondence for the same reason. She could not, however, destroy the letter she gave to her friend Nathusius.

[Zetraz]

Yep, perhaps it's like you say, perhaps Beethoven, wrote the letter to one of these ladies, but, I realiced that As a mather of fact, At the The year of 1812, july 6 was a sunday and not a monday, as it was a monday on 1802, I know the fact that others had revised the date before, but I had just made the count, and it does not match, if don't believe me, do it yourselves. Also by that year, Beethoven wrote his testament at Heiligenstadt, and both, the letters and the testament, were found together.
An other point for writeing the testament, it can be concidered the way he was feeling by that time, I know it sounds ridiculous, but it has a point.
The reason because he had the letters in his posetion, may be that by that time, the destinatary was eighter, not present at te location where they were heading, or that Beethoven, was writing them to a love that passed away (a death ladie perhaps), I mean, If you read between lines, you should notice, that he could certainly wrote those letters to a love he could never have in this heart.
For Ex he wrote this on one of his letters:
Yes, I am resolved to wander so long away from you until I can fly to your arms and say that I am really at home with you, and can send my soul enwrapped in you into the land of spirits - Yes, unhappily it must be so - You will be the more contained since you know my fidelity to you. No one else can ever possess my heart - never - never - Oh God, why must one be parted from one whom one so loves.
This and many other lines, round between his love and the pain he was feeling, but it can also be refered, as a lady that passed to better life, maybe he's truly love was not there, but he tought as many still do, that sending her a letter meant that she'd recieve it, and therefor, answered, some people do such things when someone they love pass away.
So the letters where returned to him, for she was not there
Perhaps that's why he wrote the testament a few months latter, he tought he was going to die because of his illness (increasing deaf), not knowing what it truly was, or for the reason it took away many of his dreams, and then wrote the lines: " We shall surely see each other soon; moreover, today I cannot share with you the thoughts I have had during these last few days touching my own life - If our hearts were always close together"
And in his testament tou can read, that he knew that his hearing was going away, and he didn't know how much he'd last for he was ill and he knew it, besides it was only his hearing, he didn't knew what was going next, same on health that on personal life, that could end with his life
But of course its my opinion,and by the way, the 2 pictures that were found on his desk, not nesesarly are from the "Immortal beloved", Perhaps they were, perhaps not, as a mather of fact, it is not sure.
PD: Check the dates,make the count, and you will find that this letter had been written posibly on 1802, but not on 1812.
Crs Marcs Z
I am writing this, but I belive that we souldn't talk about this topic, for the only thing it mathers, is that the Immortal Beloved, did know she was so.
But to be honest, who doesn't like to talk about unresolved things

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Is so easy to hide,
from whom you never had seen

[Peter]

Originally posted by Zetraz:
Yep, perhaps it's like you say, perhaps Beethoven, wrote the letter to one of these ladies, but, I realiced that As a mather of fact, At the The year of 1812, july 6 was a sunday and not a monday, as it was a monday on 1802, I know the fact that others had revised the date before, but I had just made the count, and it does not match, if don't believe me, do it yourselves.

Well if there is one thing that is certain about the Immortal beloved mystery it is that July 6th 1812 WAS a Monday! Evidence from the letters (such as the reference to Esterhazy) also makes 1812 the only possible year.

Go to this site for a further check if you are not convinced - http://www.fim.co.uk/remember/calender.htm

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'Man know thyself'

[Zetraz]

Well you're right, sorry about that, guess it was for not sleeping the last mounth, sorr