Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Bettina's Secret

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Bettina's Secret



    The Riddle of The 'Immortal Beloved' - again!


    To hark back to an earlier theme and perhaps by way of a slight diversion from the previous postings, I thought It might be interesting to look again at what I think is and Important topic in our studies, ie. the relationship between Beethoven and the woman who, after his own mother, probably inspired the deepest feelings of love, admiration and respect that he ever felt towards another human being - Bettina Brentano. I find her an interesting and mysterious historical personage, and I think the relationship between Beethoven and Bettina is an interesting side light on possible influences on B's music.
    Beethoven thought so much of Bettina that he appears to have asked his publishers to dedicate to her his Mass in C.
    Beethoven's so called 'Immortal Beloved'- as we all know, remains a puzzle, still without a conclusive and universally accepted resolution.

    ****************

    Bettina's Secret.

    When Schindler visited Bettina to interview her about her letters from Beethoven written more that 30 years before, she was a respected, albeit controversial, Berlin widow with six children still alive. Schindler had already included without question in the first edition of his Beethoven biography the three letters she had published.
    Then, when she declined to show him any of them, or even talk about Beethoven at all, his suspicions were reinforced. Schindler of course could not know that one of the three Beethoven letters she published would later be found or that Beethoven's inscription to Bettina of a song included with another would also be found. He would also not have know that Bettina's publisher would certify that he saw the three Beethoven letters when they were printed, nor that Moriz Carriere, a prominent Berlin professor and author, would confirm having seen them before their publication and confirmed their authenticity.
    It was not a part of Bettina's nature to decline to give information about Beethoven to one of his biographers. So why did she refuse to show Schindler any of her Beethoven letters or even talk to him about B at all.
    At the time of Schindler's visit, it is likely that Bettina would not have wanted her family or the public at large to learn of early regrets about her decision to marry, especiallyin a book that would be widely circulated. She had already embarrassed her family with her publication of the Goethe letters. The Beethoven letters must have been more damaging, because Beethoven, unlike Geothe, loved her and wrote to her about it. As to why she did not volunteer to show to Schindler the three letters she had previously published, she may already have given one away to her friend Nathusius. And if the originals of the other two used the intimate German "du" form as did the found letter (as confirmed in the recollections of Moriz Carriere, who had seen them), it would lead to questions from Schindler that could force her to reveal her secret. That would be especially so if the "du" form had been used in the last line of Beethoven's farewell letter handed to her in Tepliz in 1812, which closed with the words "Dear God, how I love you" For example, Bettina changed the "du" form used on one sentence of the Beethoven letters first published by her to the formal "Sie" form when she published them the second time several years later.
    Bettina's private papers and correspondence were not released to the public by her family until 1929, when they were auctioned off. The Goethe correspondence can now be found in the Pierpont Morgan library in New York.

    ************************************

    This extract on Bettina's Secret, is taken from - Edward Walden, a retired lawyer living in Toronto who has been researching Bettina Brentano for many years.


    ps. Apologies if this has been a bit too lengthy, but I find it fascinating.

    Lysander.
    ~ Courage, so it be righteous, will gain all things ~

    #2
    Very interesting read Amalie. I learned a lot from your post about Bettina, etc. You mentioned she regretted her marriage, do you know why? What was the circumstances of that?
    Also was she married at the time of her letters to Beethoven? I thought she was. Maybe that's why she was embarrassed by them later on and the reason for all the secrecy.

    ------------------
    'Truth and beauty joined'
    'Truth and beauty joined'

    Comment


      #3
      I have a question. The above article talks about Bettina Brentano as being the likely candidate for the "Immortal Beloved". Why is it that I have found many other articles that state that Bettina's sister-in-law, Antonie Brentano, is probably the "Immortal Beloved". So who IS it then, Bettina or Antonie? I'm totally confused now. But here is one of the sites I came across that seem to think it was Antonie:
      http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~simonj/lvb/ib.html

      Battling Brentanos...

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Joy:
        Very interesting read Amalie. I learned a lot from your post about Bettina, etc. You mentioned she regretted her marriage, do you know why? What was the circumstances of that?
        Also was she married at the time of her letters to Beethoven? I thought she was. Maybe that's why she was embarrassed by them later on and the reason for all the secrecy.


        The letters were dated 11 Aug 1810, 10 Feb 1811 and 15 Aug 1812 - there are no doubts that the 2nd letter (an autograph exists) is genuine. The letters were published in a journal in 1835 along with her correspondence with Goethe - many of these letters are also known to be her own invention. It is thought though that the incidents and events described may have happened, though embellished by her. Bettina married Von Arnim (1781-1831) in March 1811 and spent the rest of her life in Berlin.

        ------------------
        'Man know thyself'

        [This message has been edited by Peter (edited August 02, 2003).]
        'Man know thyself'

        Comment


          #5
          Thankyou for that link Andrea, I have already read them. Fascinating isn't it.
          I am afraid I don't go much for Maynard Solomon's answer to the Immortal Beloved as Antonie Brentano. But who knows?
          However I do think that Josephine von Brunsvick remains a strong candidate.
          Peter's informative insight is absolutely right, but I did want to ask whether Beethoven did dedicate his Mass in C to Bettina.
          I was interested to read that a Beethoven expert as well as respected as Richard Specht believed that Bettina met the "internal" i.e. the psychological requirements , for being the 'Immortal Beloved'.

          I shall get back to Joy's questions, and if you would like to view more exerpts section by section from Edward Walden's research on Bettina I can post them here, though they are rather lengthy but fascinating.

          Don't worry Andrea, I am probably twice as confused as anyone!




          [This message has been edited by Amalie (edited August 02, 2003).]
          ~ Courage, so it be righteous, will gain all things ~

          Comment


            #6
            Ummm....It occurs to me that B may have wanted things this way...mysterious. Perhaps it was a grand mystery to all...a secret Beethoven and the sisters shared. Even in the time of Beethoven's life I'm sure there were those who realized his "immortal" greatness. If B had had even the slightest crush on me, I would have done everything I could to keep it going.
            Perhaps like Jim Morrison said "Make the Myth." (Another December baby).

            Know what I mean? Perhaps not very clear... Perhaps a 19th century publicity stunt.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Javax:
              Ummm....It occurs to me that B may have wanted things this way...mysterious. Perhaps it was a grand mystery to all...a secret Beethoven and the sisters shared. Even in the time of Beethoven's life I'm sure there were those who realized his "immortal" greatness. If B had had even the slightest crush on me, I would have done everything I could to keep it going.
              Perhaps like Jim Morrison said "Make the Myth." (Another December baby).

              Know what I mean? Perhaps not very clear... Perhaps a 19th century publicity stunt.
              It does seem odd to me that the Immortal beloved letters are all we have on the matter - why did Beethoven keep these letters (his own!) and not any from the lady herself?

              ------------------
              'Man know thyself'
              'Man know thyself'

              Comment


                #8
                Maybe Beethoven never sent The Immortal Beloved those letters in the first place. I know we've talked about this matter before but maybe he wrote them and never sent them, else why would he not have any letters from 'her'? Knowing his sensitive nature he would have surely kept her letters if there were any and not just thrown them away. Maybe she didn't even know about his feelings for her, maybe he kept his feelings a close guarded secret. Sad really.

                ------------------
                'Truth and beauty joined'
                'Truth and beauty joined'

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Joy:
                  Maybe Beethoven never sent The Immortal Beloved those letters in the first place. I know we've talked about this matter before but maybe he wrote them and never sent them, else why would he not have any letters from 'her'? Knowing his sensitive nature he would have surely kept her letters if there were any and not just thrown them away. Maybe she didn't even know about his feelings for her, maybe he kept his feelings a close guarded secret. Sad really.

                  I've been digging in the archives to see what has been said before on this matter. Check this link:
                  http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000494.html

                  One contributor to this chain 'AlteGrafin' is a music writer who has queried the validity of Solomon's hypothesis. This was the chain that focused my mind on this issue. The letter itself offers the best evidence against Solomon in my opinion.

                  ------------------
                  "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


                  [This message has been edited by Rod (edited August 04, 2003).]
                  http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Rod:
                    I've been digging in the archives to see what has been said before on this matter. Check this link:
                    http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000494.html

                    One contributor to this chain 'AlteGrafin' is a music writer who has queried the validity of Solomon's hypothesis. This was the chain that focused my mind on this issue. The letter itself offers the best evidence against Solomon in my opinion.

                    Yes interesting reading that again and not agreeing with everything I wrote at the time! I do now agree that AB is most unlikely and 'AlteGrafin' is quite convincing in his arguments.

                    ------------------
                    'Man know thyself'
                    'Man know thyself'

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Amalie:


                      The Riddle of The 'Immortal Beloved' - again!


                      To hark back to an earlier theme and perhaps by way of a slight diversion from the previous postings, I thought It might be interesting to look again at what I think is and Important topic in our studies, ie. the relationship between Beethoven and the woman who, after his own mother, probably inspired the deepest feelings of love, admiration and respect that he ever felt towards another human being - Bettina Brentano. I find her an interesting and mysterious historical personage, and I think the relationship between Beethoven and Bettina is an interesting side light on possible influences on B's music.
                      Beethoven thought so much of Bettina that he appears to have asked his publishers to dedicate to her his Mass in C.
                      Beethoven's so called 'Immortal Beloved'- as we all know, remains a puzzle, still without a conclusive and universally accepted resolution.

                      ****************

                      Bettina's Secret.

                      When Schindler visited Bettina to interview her about her letters from Beethoven written more that 30 years before, she was a respected, albeit controversial, Berlin widow with six children still alive. Schindler had already included without question in the first edition of his Beethoven biography the three letters she had published.
                      Then, when she declined to show him any of them, or even talk about Beethoven at all, his suspicions were reinforced. Schindler of course could not know that one of the three Beethoven letters she published would later be found or that Beethoven's inscription to Bettina of a song included with another would also be found. He would also not have know that Bettina's publisher would certify that he saw the three Beethoven letters when they were printed, nor that Moriz Carriere, a prominent Berlin professor and author, would confirm having seen them before their publication and confirmed their authenticity.
                      It was not a part of Bettina's nature to decline to give information about Beethoven to one of his biographers. So why did she refuse to show Schindler any of her Beethoven letters or even talk to him about B at all.
                      At the time of Schindler's visit, it is likely that Bettina would not have wanted her family or the public at large to learn of early regrets about her decision to marry, especiallyin a book that would be widely circulated. She had already embarrassed her family with her publication of the Goethe letters. The Beethoven letters must have been more damaging, because Beethoven, unlike Geothe, loved her and wrote to her about it. As to why she did not volunteer to show to Schindler the three letters she had previously published, she may already have given one away to her friend Nathusius. And if the originals of the other two used the intimate German "du" form as did the found letter (as confirmed in the recollections of Moriz Carriere, who had seen them), it would lead to questions from Schindler that could force her to reveal her secret. That would be especially so if the "du" form had been used in the last line of Beethoven's farewell letter handed to her in Tepliz in 1812, which closed with the words "Dear God, how I love you" For example, Bettina changed the "du" form used on one sentence of the Beethoven letters first published by her to the formal "Sie" form when she published them the second time several years later.
                      Bettina's private papers and correspondence were not released to the public by her family until 1929, when they were auctioned off. The Goethe correspondence can now be found in the Pierpont Morgan library in New York.

                      ************************************

                      This extract on Bettina's Secret, is taken from - Edward Walden, a retired lawyer living in Toronto who has been researching Bettina Brentano for many years.


                      ps. Apologies if this has been a bit too lengthy, but I find it fascinating.

                      Lysander.

                      Just to add my penny's worth - come the resurrection (for those who believe!), I think the next person I want to meet and find out all about after Adam & Eve is probably Beethoven. He has beaten King Solomon in my list of 'Historic Characters I would most like to meet'. I would ask him who his Eternal Beloved is and all sorts of questions after that. Then at last for me the mystery will be solved. I would then of course thank him for his brilliant music, and suggest he finishes his unfinished music and write some new ones, possibly with the collaboration of Handel and Mozart if the egos could get into one room!

                      Dawn

                      ------------------

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Rod:
                        I've been digging in the archives to see what has been said before on this matter. Check this link:
                        http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000494.html

                        One contributor to this chain 'AlteGrafin' is a music writer who has queried the validity of Solomon's hypothesis. This was the chain that focused my mind on this issue. The letter itself offers the best evidence against Solomon in my opinion.

                        Thanks for bringing that up, Rod. It was fun to read again. Lots of opinions, lots of disagreements with Solomon's theory. I wonder where he came up with some of his
                        hypothesis i.e. the Immortal Beloved theory and let's not forget his theory on Beethoven's sister in law.

                        ------------------
                        'Truth and beauty joined'
                        'Truth and beauty joined'

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Peter:
                          Yes interesting reading that again and not agreeing with everything I wrote at the time! I do now agree that AB is most unlikely and 'AlteGrafin' is quite convincing in his arguments.

                          You're giving up the notion that the Immortal Beloved was AB! I remember you were rather positive that was the one! Wasn't Josephine Brunsvik another prime candidate? We all change our minds from time to time. I for one still don't know who it was and never will although it's interesting to speculate.

                          ------------------
                          'Truth and beauty joined'
                          'Truth and beauty joined'

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Joy:
                            You're giving up the notion that the Immortal Beloved was AB! I remember you were rather positive that was the one! Wasn't Josephine Brunsvik another prime candidate? We all change our minds from time to time. I for one still don't know who it was and never will although it's interesting to speculate.


                            Listening to Jeremy Siepmann's Naxos, CD - Life and Works of Beethoven, I was struck by comments that he made to the effect that the 'Immortal Beloved' letter could well have been an entirely fictional idealization of Beethoven's view of womanhood and of his platonic or romantic/spiritual yearnings. It was not addressed to anyone and I personally think that B never intended to send it. The letter was almost like an aide de memior for Beethoven himself of everything he przed and admired in women and served as a source of inspiration for his music and which he kept near him to refer to.
                            I believe the letters are not simply outpourings about his situation at the time, they also present his view on love in general.


                            I personally feel the Letters could have been a verbal Fantasia on a theme. And of course the letters encapsulate the quintessential romantic temperament.
                            Dearest Ludwig.


                            ~ Courage, so it be righteous, will gain all things ~

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Joy:
                              You're giving up the notion that the Immortal Beloved was AB! I remember you were rather positive that was the one! Wasn't Josephine Brunsvik another prime candidate? We all change our minds from time to time. I for one still don't know who it was and never will although it's interesting to speculate.


                              Listening to Jeremy Siepmann's Naxos, CD - Life and Works of Beethoven, I was struck by comments that he made to the effect that the 'Immortal Beloved' letter could well have been an entirely fictional idealization of Beethoven's view of womanhood and of his platonic or romantic/spiritual yearnings. It was not addressed to anyone and I personally think that B never intended to send it. The letter was almost like an aide de memior for Beethoven himself of everything he prized and admired in women and served as a source of inspiration for his music and which he kept near him to refer to.
                              I believe the letters are not simply outpourings about his situation at the time, they also present his view on love in general.


                              I personally feel the Letters could have been a verbal Fantasia on a theme. And of course the letters encapsulate the quintessential romantic temperament.

                              ********************

                              There is a marvellous description of Uncle Ludwig with Karl walking in the street one day and an eye witness commenting on the eccentric spectacle before him. An 11 year old boy was walking somewhat reluctantly behind a shortish thick set man with a lion mane of dark hair and a swarthy complextion dressed rather shabbily. The boy gave every impression of being embarrassed as the man gesticulated to passers by, and the passers by laughing as he drew forth from his large coat pocket a big thick wad of papers which he called his conversation book and asked people to write down what they were saying in his book, whilst with his other hand he pulled out from the other pocket a large sheaf of music papers which he started to inscribe.
                              Karl afterwards said that he didn't want to walk with his Uncle Ludwig, who attracted so much attention.
                              Dearest Lugwig....




                              [This message has been edited by Amalie (edited August 04, 2003).]
                              ~ Courage, so it be righteous, will gain all things ~

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X