Top 20 composers

[urtextmeister]

I never imagined I would be in position of defending J.S. Bach.
I think the scarcity of Bach's music was a big factor during the classical era was a big factor. If I had only a handful of preludes and fugues to judge Bach by, I might choose Handel also.

Also, J.S. Bach's was extremely out of fashion by the second half of the century. Unlike now, composers were almost exclusively interested in what was current.

I can't see where Mozart had anything to say about Handel one way or the other, except that he arranged some of his music adding rococo touches (he did the same with the music of J.S. Bach, by the way). Give me a quote about this and I'll shut up.

I am surprised that there is a dispute over the number one position on this list. I always thought reverence for Bach was universal. It would be like having a list of important characters from the bible and arguing over whether God should be number one.

I believe there was a time when Handel was considered there greatest of all composers. Right up there with Gounod and Meyerbeer. I thought times had changed, however.

[Chaszz]

...I am surprised that there is a dispute over the number one position on this list. I always thought reverence for Bach was universal. It would be like having a list of important characters from the bible and arguing over whether God should be number one.

I believe there was a time when Handel was considered there greatest of all composers. Right up there with Gounod and Meyerbeer. I thought times had changed, however.[/B][/QUOTE]

As I said, here we go again.

[Rod]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:


I believe there was a time when Handel was considered there greatest of all composers. Right up there with Gounod and Meyerbeer. I thought times had changed, however.

Gounod and Meyerbeer? Some quotes re Handel:

The composer Christoph Willibald von Gluck:
"The inspired master of our art."


Hearing the 'Hallelujah Chorus' from Messiah, Joseph Haydn is said to have "wept like a child" and said:
"He is the master of us all."


Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart:
"Handel understands effect better than any of us -- when he chooses, he strikes like a thunderbolt... though he often saunters, in the manner of his time, this is always something there."


Ludwig van Beethoven:
"Handel is the greatest composer that ever lived... I would uncover my head and kneel down on his tomb."


I think Bach's manner of composition was becoming virtually obsolete as he was composinging it. Hence by Beethoven's time it was largely forgotten. It seems Bach was resurrected during the Romantic era, at the same time Handel began a perpetual decline.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited September 10, 2003).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Though Wagner revered Bach, his favorite composer was clearly Beethoven.

I do not deny his admiration of Beethoven, but according to a quote in my Oxford dictionary it is Bach whom he sees as the ultimate composer. Of course the Oxford has got a few things wrong before, I have discovered this myself, but perhaps not a whole quotation.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
I do not deny his admiration of Beethoven, but according to a quote in my Oxford dictionary it is Bach whom he sees as the ultimate composer. Of course the Oxford has got a few things wrong before, I have discovered this myself, but perhaps not a whole quotation.

Can you repeat the quotation?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:

I think Bach's manner of composition was becoming virtually obsolete as he was composinging it. Hence by Beethoven's time it was largely forgotten.

Not by Beethoven who I think we can agree was a little more discerning than his contemporaries!

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'Man know thyself'

[Steppenwolf]

I think Chaszz is right: Wagner revered Beethoven over all others. That is pretty clear by his essay 'Beethoven'. He had enormous respect for Bach's skill, but was a bit put off by the Baroque style, which (as an ultra romantic) he considered stuffy, rigid and too formal. There is a passage in his (notorious) essay 'Judentum in der Musik' where he describes Bach's genius as the ability to break free from the rigid baroque-German style and express real human emotion in his music, but suggests that (as a fault of his time, rather than his own failing) he was never able to emancipate himself completely - like the sphinx his music turned out to be only half-human (ie conform to the romantic style of emotional expression which in his mind was artistically superior). Mozart, and especially Beethoven broke that mold, and in Wagner's opinion truly great music began, and was liberated, by them. (Handel, incidently, doesn't even get a passing reference or footnote)

[urtextmeister]

Thanks, Rod, for the quotes. It was especially interesting what Beethoven had to say about Handel. That Beethoven was not one to mince words. The Mozart quote is not quite so strong. Overall, though, I am convinced that Handel was the more popular composer of the time (compared with Bach).

Incidently, what piece or handful of pieces do you think really shows what a great composer Handel was? Like most people, I am familiar with Messiah, a smattering of other oratorio and opera--I did sit through a whole performance of Rinaldo once--Water music, some concerti grosso, sonatas and some keyboard music. Also, could you give us the address for your Handel website again?

[Rod]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
Thanks, Rod, for the quotes. It was especially interesting what Beethoven had to say about Handel. That Beethoven was not one to mince words. The Mozart quote is not quite so strong. Overall, though, I am convinced that Handel was the more popular composer of the time (compared with Bach).

Incidently, what piece or handful of pieces do you think really shows what a great composer Handel was? Like most people, I am familiar with Messiah, a smattering of other oratorio and opera--I did sit through a whole performance of Rinaldo once--Water music, some concerti grosso, sonatas and some keyboard music. Also, could you give us the address for your Handel website again?

The Handel website address is always to be found in my profile. The address is:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/handelforum/


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Can you repeat the quotation?

The extract from the Oxford Music Dictionary is as follows:

...suffice to say that for many composers, and for countless listeners, Bach's music is supreme - to quote Wagner: "the most stupendous miracle in all music."

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
The extract from the Oxford Music Dictionary is as follows:

...suffice to say that for many composers, and for countless listeners, Bach's music is supreme - to quote Wagner: "the most stupendous miracle in all music."

Well, Wagner was liable to say one thing at one time and the opposite at another time.
If you go by the number of quotes in his writings and in his wife's diaries, then Beethoven would seem to have been on his mind more frequently than Bach. However, Bach's reputation was growing at this time as the rediscovery of his works proceeded, and Wagner may have changed his mind later in life, or at least given Bach more attention.

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Well, Wagner was liable to say one thing at one time and the opposite at another time.
If you go by the number of quotes in his writings and in his wife's diaries, then Beethoven would seem to have been on his mind more frequently than Bach. However, Bach's reputation was growing at this time as the rediscovery of his works proceeded, and Wagner may have changed his mind later in life, or at least given Bach more attention.

Wagner of course wrote brilliantly on Beethoven's 9th, recognizing it to be Kunst-Zukunft, that is the art work of the future.
There did tend to be a strong strain of solipsism in everything Wagner said or did of course, and for all his staggering genius he also had a monstrous ego, and he seems to have regarded Beethoven as a kind of prototype for his own music, though I don't doubt, he did also understand Beethoven's music profoundly.
Nietzsche, Wagner's brilliant erstwhile companion identified Beethoven as the first real (Dionysian composer, meaning one who communicated the most profound sublime harmonies which were not simply listned to, but which one became a part of in a kind of great universal community of elevated spirit. Wagner of course was the great realizer of this project in Neitzsche's eyes.

[Sophia]

Interesting list. I didn't have time to read all of the replies, but I would like to make a note: has music ended since Stravinsky and Sostakovitch? And, most of all, where is the name of the man who made the first big difference in the transition to the 20th century, meaning Debussy?

Were there no significant composers in the 20th century? Was there not a Schoenberg and his students, Berg and Webern, was there not a Xenakis, of all people?

Please people, music has not ended yet. Berio. Ligeti, Penderecki, Takemitsu, Xenakis, Stockhausen, Varese, Skalkotas, Christou.....etc, etc, etc.

Anyway, that was just a note

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Sophia:
Interesting list. I didn't have time to read all of the replies, but I would like to make a note: has music ended since Stravinsky and Sostakovitch? And, most of all, where is the name of the man who made the first big difference in the transition to the 20th century, meaning Debussy?

Were there no significant composers in the 20th century? Was there not a Schoenberg and his students, Berg and Webern, was there not a Xenakis, of all people?

Please people, music has not ended yet. Berio. Ligeti, Penderecki, Takemitsu, Xenakis, Stockhausen, Varese, Skalkotas, Christou.....etc, etc, etc.

Anyway, that was just a note

All right, I'll give you Debussy and Shostakovich, and see you Ravel and Prokofiev, but really, those serial guys... Not that they don't have merit, but do you really place them in the all-time top 20? I know it is only MY opinion, but even Penderecki, would I rather hear him or Haydn? Sorry, no contest. Like all the other arts, I may admire Jackson Pollock for example, but would I rather see an exhibition of him or Rembrandt... ?
Regards,
Gurn

[spaceray]

I want to see Pollock and Rembrandt!!!
I want to keep my mind open to new music .
Great composers are writing wonderful new compositions this very morning.They won't make your top twenty list today but who's to say what the future holds for this music.