Top 20 composers

[Rod]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Look, Beethoven is Beethoven and Handel is Handel ,I think Henry Purcell was the greatest thing to ever happen to English Music and it is a real shame about the Nymphs and Shepherds lyrics that the poor fellow had to set.But I doubt that he would make it on to any top ten list.There was a lot of music before Beethoven and there is plenty after and it all has it's place .The idea that one of the great composers
are "worse' than another is absolutely ridiculous.
In the words of Gurn Blanston "I know I'm right about this"

I am not unsympathetic to your position but to me it is immediately apparent that some are better than others, though not always by the same criteria of judgement.

I have no problem with the authors questionable ranking of the composers, it provides a useful guide to how useful I should regard his opinion, and thus it will save myself the cost of buying any of his publications. I am not surprised as a Bachian that he rates Handel so lowly. I have no problem if he rates Mozart above Beethoven, but if he said it here he should be prepared for an argument!

You cannot ignore the fact that all of the well known composers had their favourites and were prepared to voice those opinions - Beethoven included.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited September 02, 2003).]

[Chaszz]

Not a bad list. A man with some sense in him.

But I would rate Handel higher, especially over Schumann.

Chaszz

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited September 02, 2003).]

[Sorrano]

[quote]Originally posted by spaceray:
[b]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
We have to categorize these things and quantify them.

I'm sorry I think this notion is what wrong with the world.Life is not a contest.

No it isn't a contest. However we have the inherent need to compare and to quantify, hence the lists. What we need to understand better is that each list is different with each person.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, Gurn, welcome back from your extended vacation! And just in time, I see ;-)) Why must we bicker and argue about who bested who? Like Fritz (?) above, I have also read this book, and like Rod I say "Phil who?". One of the things that Goulding says is that you can move around everyone else, but Bach's position at #1 is immutable. What a crock!! As the lovely and talented Spaceray says, why not just listen? And if Bach's quantity somehow makes him superior to Beethoven's quality, I'll eat your CD's. In any case, none of the greatest composers emanated from the Baroque, that was merely a period when music was a mathmatical exercise, designed not to entertain, but to "come out right". The greatest music ever written was by the High Viennese School masters, of which there are but 3, place them in any order as it matters not. That's my opinion, I may be right.
Regards,
Gurn
PS - Great to be back!

[jman]

Well I certainly think Beethoven and Brahms should be tied for the top spot, but that's a very personal opinion. I don't know about Wagner but as for Handel, I kind of go through phases with him (and all Baroque orchestral/choral music actually) where I hate hit then I stop listening to it for a while then grow to want to try it again and then listen to it a bit then hate it....It's just the constant use of horns that annoys me.

Anyways, as a first and foremost piano-lover I think Chopin should be much higher, and Schubert has done nothing but impress me ever so I'd put 1. Beethoven/Brahms 2. Mozart 3. Bach 4. Schubert 5. Chopin. then whatever else. I never did like Bach but I've started to get into his style more now that I'm learning my first Prelude and Fugue.

[This message has been edited by jman (edited September 06, 2003).]

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
The greatest music ever written was by the High Viennese School masters, of which there are but 3, place them in any order as it matters not. That's my opinion, I may be right.
Regards,
Gurn
PS - Great to be back![/B]

Glad to hear you are back Gurn,here's the answer in no particular order,Beethoven
, Haydn and Mozart.

Lists are good for groceries and laundry.

Muriel

[urtextmeister]

A list like this is quite arbitrary and I think any self-respecting musical scholar should stay away from such things.

However, if we have to have a list I think that Bach should absolutely, positively be number one. I think most of the composers on the list would agree.

I suspect this book was written during some phase of Wagner mania. I can't imagine a book being written now with Wagner so high on the list.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
A list like this is quite arbitrary and I think any self-respecting musical scholar should stay away from such things.

However, if we have to have a list I think that Bach should absolutely, positively be number one. I think most of the composers on the list would agree.

I suspect this book was written during some phase of Wagner mania. I can't imagine a book being written now with Wagner so high on the list.

EXCUSE ME?!??

[Steppenwolf]

I would agree with the top four. Although not necessarily in that particular order. The top four as the pillars of classical music ... which rank they each occupy within the top four is arbitrary, a matter of personal taste ... they are all of equal stature in their own particular way and it comes down to personal taste. But the four are head and shoulders over the rest. The remaining composers suffer from being mere mortals.

At number 5, it would be a toss up between Haydn and Handel. Difficult to say which.

[SR]

I think Bach belongs on top due to combination of his quality and his chronological position. Mozart and Beethoven I think are correct. Handel definitly deserves 4 or 5 at least, on a par with Haydn. IMO Wagner doesn't belong on a top 20 list. Brahms should be no higher than #10. Stravinsky should be near the bottom of this list, as should Schumann. The problems with these lists is of course that they are largly just about personel preference, but worse they leave off many fine composers whose work doesn't have the common recognition. I'd like to remove Dvorak and Prokofiev and insert Weber and Rosetti.
As lists of this kind go it's not terrible.


Steve

[Rod]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:

However, if we have to have a list I think that Bach should absolutely, positively be number one. I think most of the composers on the list would agree.

Not Beethoven, Mozart or Haydn, to name but three.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[urtextmeister]

Originally posted by Rod:
Not Beethoven, Mozart or Haydn, to name but three.

You may be right about Mozart and Haydn. Bach was still quite obscure at that point. Mozart probably didn't see or hear a significant amount of Bach until he sought out Bach's manuscripts at the Thomasschule in Leipzig towards the end of his life.
From what I have read about Beethoven, he revered Bach. Again, he had access to only a small portion of the Bach's output.

Do you have any evidence to indicate that Mozart, Beethoven or Haydn had anything disparaging to say about Bach? I don't ask that as a challenge. I am simply interested. Actually, it would be an interesting project to gather what all of these composers had to say about Bach and compare them.

About earlier comments regarding Wagner: I do not mean to speak harshly of him. I, too have thrilled to the operatic splendor of the Ring. My point was that during the beginning of this century, he was considered one of the greats and now he is thought of as that guy who wrote long operas.
Just picking a book off the shelf, I see it was written in 1932 and the author states that the "main arch" in the permanent hierarchy of of music is: Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Brahms, Wagner and Verdi.
I don't think that is consellation is still in place.

[Grillparzer]

Originally posted by Rod:
Not Beethoven, Mozart or Haydn, to name but three.

Bravo, quite right!


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Adieu,
Franz

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[Rod]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
You may be right about Mozart and Haydn. Bach was still quite obscure at that point. Mozart probably didn't see or hear a significant amount of Bach until he sought out Bach's manuscripts at the Thomasschule in Leipzig towards the end of his life.
From what I have read about Beethoven, he revered Bach. Again, he had access to only a small portion of the Bach's output.

Do you have any evidence to indicate that Mozart, Beethoven or Haydn had anything disparaging to say about Bach? I don't ask that as a challenge. I am simply interested. Actually, it would be an interesting project to gather what all of these composers had to say about Bach and compare them.

About earlier comments regarding Wagner: I do not mean to speak harshly of him. I, too have thrilled to the operatic splendor of the Ring. My point was that during the beginning of this century, he was considered one of the greats and now he is thought of as that guy who wrote long operas.
Just picking a book off the shelf, I see it was written in 1932 and the author states that the "main arch" in the permanent hierarchy of of music is: Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Brahms, Wagner and Verdi.
I don't think that is consellation is still in place.

Beethoven stated many times in the latter half of his life that he thought Handel was 'the greatest'. As far as I am aware the same goes for the other two. Had Beethoven access to more of Bach's output I doubt his choice would have changed. This is not to say these men were against Bach, far from it, but certainly in Beethoven's case his preference was clear to the end.

Concerning Bach as the favourite, I can name Wagner but of course there will be others.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Beethoven stated many times in the latter half of his life that he thought Handel was 'the greatest'. As far as I am aware the same goes for the other two. Had Beethoven access to more of Bach's output I doubt his choice would have changed. This is not to say these men were against Bach, far from it, but certainly in Beethoven's case his preference was clear to the end.

Concerning Bach as the favourite, I can name Wagner but of course there will be others.

Though Wagner revered Bach, his favorite composer was clearly Beethoven.

(Here we go again.)