Beethovens 4th piano concerto a question.

[mrfixit]

Basicly i bought a other copy of Beethovens 4th paino concerto on cd the other day.(Its had a other peice of music i wanted on it thats why) The one i got recently the first movement runs at 16 minutes. The first cd i heard it runs at 20 minutes. I like the first version better, but what time is the most authentic? I think this is the first time i have really disliked a perfomance of Beethoven. I never really thought about who is playing a peice before, as i fuggured it didnt matter much who was banging out the notes.

[Steve]

Originally posted by mrfixit:
Basicly i bought a other copy of Beethovens 4th paino concerto on cd the other day.(Its had a other peice of music i wanted on it thats why) The one i got recently the first movement runs at 16 minutes. The first cd i heard it runs at 20 minutes. I like the first version better, but what time is the most authentic? I think this is the first time i have really disliked a perfomance of Beethoven. I never really thought about who is playing a peice before, as i fuggured it didnt matter much who was banging out the notes.

[Rod]

Originally posted by mrfixit:
Basicly i bought a other copy of Beethovens 4th paino concerto on cd the other day.(Its had a other peice of music i wanted on it thats why) The one i got recently the first movement runs at 16 minutes. The first cd i heard it runs at 20 minutes. I like the first version better, but what time is the most authentic? I think this is the first time i have really disliked a perfomance of Beethoven. I never really thought about who is playing a peice before, as i fuggured it didnt matter much who was banging out the notes.

With this concerto one has to consider the cadenza the soloist is using, this can substantially effect the duration of the piece. If a Beethoven composed cadenza is used then this obviously would be more authentically Beethovenian than if the soloist performed his own, though in B's day soloists would typically perform their own cadenza in any case.

Then there is the issue of tempo in addition to this. I have an authentic instrument recording of No4 with Badura-Skoda as soloist and he plays a Beethoven cadenza and the tempi seem reasonable to me, I'll let you now the timings of the tracks so you can compare.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited September 12, 2003).]

[mrfixit]

Thanks also i am wondering what a cadenza excatly is. Is it the whole paino part or is it just the paino when its on its own doing a solo? I was listening to mozarts 20th piano concerto and the first movement had a cadenza by Beethoven, so it left me wondering how much of the piano part was beethovens?

[Rod]

Originally posted by mrfixit:
Thanks also i am wondering what a cadenza excatly is. Is it the whole paino part or is it just the paino when its on its own doing a solo? I was listening to mozarts 20th piano concerto and the first movement had a cadenza by Beethoven, so it left me wondering how much of the piano part was beethovens?

A cadanza is a virtuoso solo part for the pianist, usually developing themes already heard. With Beethoven they are found in the first movement and typically also a smaller cadenza in the finale. There is no room for such things in the 5th concerto as the piano part is written out in whole, without space for an improvised section/s. With the Mozart piece you heard only the cadenza was Beethoven's.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited September 12, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
A cadanza is a virtuoso solo part for the pianist, usually developing themes already heard. With Beethoven they are found in the first movement and typically also a smaller cadenza in the finale. There is no room for such things in the 5th concerto as the piano part is written out in whole, without space for an improvised section/s. With the Mozart piece you heard only the cadenza was Beethoven's.

There are cadenzas in the 5th but as you say fully written out in the score - the improvisation function no longer considered appropiate. As you know the 'authentic' performance of the 4th in Vienna included a cadenza not by Beethoven - ridiculous considering the concert was supposed to be a recreation of the 1808 event and Beethoven's cadenzas for the 4th were obviously performed on that occasion, though he didn't write them out until a few weeks after.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
There are cadenzas in the 5th but as you say fully written out in the score - the improvisation function no longer considered appropiate. As you know the 'authentic' performance of the 4th in Vienna included a cadenza not by Beethoven - ridiculous considering the concert was supposed to be a recreation of the 1808 event and Beethoven's cadenzas for the 4th were obviously performed on that occasion, though he didn't write them out until a few weeks after.

I agree Peter. I think the cadenzas in the 5th are more homogenised with the remainder of the music, one is not so aware of them being cadenzas in the same manner as the earlier concertos.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Rod:
I have an authentic instrument recording of No4 with Badura-Skoda as soloist and he plays a Beethoven cadenza and the tempi seem reasonable to me, I'll let you now the timings of the tracks so you can compare.

Here are the timings as promised, with a lenghthy cazenza by Beethoven for the 1st mvt:

1: 17.20
2: 4.23
3: 13.03

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[mrfixit]

I will upload the first movement of the Concerto sometime so you can listen to it. So you can give me your opinion on the cadanzas.