Beethoven spelling

[Peter]

Does anyone possess the complete Beethoven letters? If so could you check Beethoven's spelling of Carlsbad in the letter of 9th August 1812 to Breitkopf & Haertel. Does he use the letter C to identify this place rather than K? In my edition of this he uses a C, now the significance of this is that this letter was written around 4 weeks after the famous Immortal beloved letters in which Beethoven identifies the place as K, interpreted as Karlsbad.

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

I have the book "Beethoven's Letters" and in the Aug. 9th, 1812 letter my version shows 'Carlsbad' and the letter 'C'. I see what you're getting at with the reference to 'K' (Karlsbad) a few weeks later.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Does anyone possess the complete Beethoven letters?

I have a volume of his most important letters, a fair number are included, so I'll have a look tonight.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Rod:
I have a volume of his most important letters, a fair number are included, so I'll have a look tonight.

I've just noticed Joy's post. Chances are we've got the same book but I'll check anyway.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I've just noticed Joy's post. Chances are we've got the same book but I'll check anyway.

Solomon cites the same letter as evidence that K=Karlsbad - his source is Anderson, but her edition contains many errors. A more factual source which I must try and get hold of is Theodore Albrecht, ed. Letters to Beethoven , 3 vols. (Univ. of Nebraska Press, 1996).

Interestingly Goethe in his letter to Beethoven June 25th 1811 also spells it Carlsbad.


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'Man know thyself'

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Joy:
I have the book "Beethoven's Letters" and in the Aug. 9th, 1812 letter my version shows 'Carlsbad' and the letter 'C'. I see what you're getting at with the reference to 'K' (Karlsbad) a few weeks later.

Joy,
I have also a copy of Dr. A.C.Kalischer's collection of BEETHOVEN'S LETTERS, but I am afriad not all (1220 letters) as yet. It is curious that Beethoven refers to Carlsbad with a C, yet in my copy of LETTERS, JOURNALS AND CONVERSATIONS, translated and introduced by MICHAEL HAMBURGER, Beethoven refers to Karlsbad - spelt with a (K), in the very same letter to Breitkopf and Hartel, Aug.9th 1812.

Another curiousity in the MICHEAL HAMBURGER, translations, Beethoven refers to his nephew Karl, with a (K) in several letters.

From the Notebooks:

Karl's mother sought the comparison herself,..only my scruples, then, must end, and I am surely entitled to think that the widow has made adequate provision for herself, as I sincerely wish her. I have done my part, O Lord! It might have been possible without offending the widow, but it was not.
Only thou, Almighty God, canst see into my heart, knowest that I have sacrificed my very best for the sake of my dear Karl: bless my work, bless the widow. Why cannot I obey all the prompting of my heart and help the widow?
God! God! my refuge, my rock, O my all! Thou seest my inmost thoughts, thou knowest it hurts me to be compelled to make others suffer in my good works for my dear Karl!!!

In Dr. A.C.Kalischer's BEETHOVEN'S LETTERS, Beethoven refers to Carl with a (C).

I just wonder whether Karlsbad and Karl with (K) is the Austrian spelling, just a thought. Perhaps Andrea can help us on this one?




[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited September 13, 2003).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Amalie:
[B]
Joy,
I have also a copy of Dr. A.C.Kalischer's collection of BEETHOVEN'S LETTERS, but I am afriad not all (1220 letters) as yet. It is curious that Beethoven refers to Carlsbad with a C, yet in my copy of LETTERS, JOURNALS AND CONVERSATIONS, translated and introduced by MICHAEL HAMBURGER, Beethoven refers to Karlsbad - spelt with a (K), in the very same letter to Breitkopf and Hartel, Aug.9th 1812.

Another curiousity in the MICHEAL HAMBURGER, translations, Beethoven refers to his nephew Karl, with a (K) in several letters.

From the Notebooks:

Karl's mother sought the comparison herself,..only my scruples, then, must end, and I am surely entitled to think that the widow has made adequate provision for herself, as I sincerely wish her. I have done my part, O Lord! It might have been possible without offending the widow, but it was not.
Only thou, Almighty God, canst see into my heart, knowest that I have sacrificed my very best for the sake of my dear Karl: bless my work, bless the widow. Why cannot I obey all the prompting of my heart and help the widow?
God! God! my refuge, my rock, O my all! Thou seest my inmost thoughts, thou knowest it hurts me to be compelled to make others suffer in my good works for my dear Karl!!!
In Dr. A.C.Kalischer's BEETHOVEN'S LETTERS, Beethoven refers to Carl with a (C).

B]

I have wondered the same thing why he uses a 'K' when writing about Karl and other times a 'C' Good book though. I have referred to it many times!




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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Roehre]

I have wondered the same thing why he uses a 'K' when writing about Karl and other times a 'C' Good book though. I have referred to it many times!
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'Truth and beauty joined'

Beethoven's nephew was baptised Karl van Beethoven, which at that time (born September 4th 1806) was definitely unusual.
Beethoven's orhography and spelling in general was neither consequent nor standard, he even managed to spell his own name in different ways (Bethoven, Beethofen as alternatives).

Karlsbad is a difficult one.
In Czech the place is called Karlovy Vary, in the Austrian empire this was used all the time without variations of the first letter.

In German in general many places which now are spelled beginning with a K, before the 1890s were spelled with a C.
Emperor Wilhelm II ordered that words with a C which were pronounced as a K compulsarily had to be spelled with a K.
Therefore Coelln or Cöln (Cologne) became Köln.

Before that it was not unusual at all in the German speaking parts of Europe that place names which began with a C were spelled with a K. So Carlsbad as well as Karlsbad could be found, though officially it was Carlsbad with a C.

Beethoven uses Karlsbad consequently, on 9th August 1812, 12th August 1812, and [March 1813] (I refer to the new 7 volume complete Briefe-Gesamtausgabe by Brandenburg (1997), letters 591, 592 and 631), but Carlsbad is consequently used by e.g. Franz Wegeler and Anton Schindler.