Key signatures

[Joy]

Don't go by me, jman, you're probably right. I just got those key/emotions from a list! I can't pick out any key differences! I have a tin ear!!

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I have also puzzled over how one key can really sound much different from another key, but the composers say so, so I decided it must be based in the ranges of the instuments in the orchestra. If in one key, many of the significant instruments are in their lower and middle ranges, then it won't sound as bright as another key where lots of them are in their middle and higher ranges. But then the next question is, what about the piano? Would Beethoven's 'heroic' key be the same on the piano as for the orchestra? If so, does the piano have about the same range as the average of the instuments in the orchestra? Or since its range is greater, do most of the instruments fall somewhere in the middle of the piano's range?

Chaszz

The range of orchestral instruments is a factor - the piano obviously has a far greater range at around 7 and quarter octaves. Also the practicalities of reading a score have to be taken into consideration - for example it is much easier to read something in E minor than Fb minor - though both would sound the same on the piano.

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'Man know thyself'

[SR]

If anyone can produce a quote by a major composer confirming that a particular key was used because "........" I would love to know of it. I have never seen such a quote, and one would think if Beethoven or any composer felt there was emotion wrapped within keys they would have stated such at least once. I agree that different sonorities can be found in different keys, but not that that relates to emotion. I also have difficulty with the concept that E flat would cause the same emotional reaction in all people. I think key choices are based solely on instrument ranges, exectution, and interaction. Key choose is a very practical thing. I think composers often begin in one key then transpose as they find something not working. I have personal knowledge of how film composer John Williams works. He composes in C, always, and writes accidentals as needed to create his composition. Afterwords, he transposes to whatever key removes the most accidentals and does not put any phrases out of range of chosen instruments.


I recently did a bit of reseach on Mozart's Piano Sonatas. In a piano sonata there is no reason for key choice except emotion right ? Wrong. If you study his scores and compare them to a photo of his Mozart'sown Walter pianoforte you find that most are written in the only logical key that fits on the keyboard. Some are written in the ONLY key that could possibly be used, as his Walter pianoforte only had a 5 octave range not the current pianos range of 7+ octaves. Several of Mozarts Sonatas utilize the top and bottomost keys on the keyboard making transposition into some other "emotion" impossible. In the sonatas that could be moved in key the choices available often create unwieldy key signatures, >Mozart seldon ventured beyond 3 sharps or flats< and or hand positions that cause greater difficulty in executing the musical phrase.
As I said earlier if Beethoven or Mozart or anyone ever "I wrote my Symphony #xxx
in c minor because that key causes people to feel......" I'd like to be made aware.


Regards

Steve

[This message has been edited by SR (edited September 06, 2003).]

[Chris]

Originally posted by SR:
I have personal knowledge of how film composer John Williams works. He composes in C, always, and writes accidentals as needed to create his composition. Afterwords, he transposes to whatever key removes the most accidentals and does not put any phrases out of range of chosen instruments.

I can hardly believe that. For one thing, it's totally pointless - if you are writing something, then you know right away what key it is in. If you mean that he composes everything truly in key of C major and then transposes to another key from there, I could see that. But that would not really affect the number of accidentals. So I guess I'm not really sure what you're getting at. What you are describing sounds like it could produce some wrong things. Suppose, for example, he writes a piece in the key of C and there are no accidentals anywhere in the piece, so he says, "Yep, key of C." But just because there are no accidentals does not mean it is really in the key of C. Perhaps it is in the key of G, but he used no F's or F#'s in the piece, so he didn't discover it.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by SR:
If anyone can produce a quote by a major composer confirming that a particular key was used because "........" I would love to know of it. I have never seen such a quote, and one would think if Beethoven or any composer felt there was emotion wrapped within keys they would have stated such at least once. I agree that different sonorities can be found in different keys, but not that that relates to emotion. I also have difficulty with the concept that E flat would cause the same emotional reaction in all people. I think key choices are based solely on instrument ranges, exectution, and interaction. Key choose is a very practical thing. I think composers often begin in one key then transpose as they find something not working. I have personal knowledge of how film composer John Williams works. He composes in C, always, and writes accidentals as needed to create his composition. Afterwords, he transposes to whatever key removes the most accidentals and does not put any phrases out of range of chosen instruments.
Regards

Steve

[This message has been edited by SR (edited September 06, 2003).]

I cannot produce an exact quote but some of those here with the resources may recall something to the effect that Beethoven used b minor for the more personal darker emotions. I think he might have said something in relationship to the opening section of the Agnus Dei of the Missa Solemnis.

[Amalie]

Schubart likened E minor to a maiden dressed in white, with a pink bow on her bosom, while G minor reflected dissatisfaction, uneasiness, resentment, and dislike. Goethe's friend K.F.Zelter maintained that every key was capable of expressing any emotion.

Robert Schumann, in his 1835 essay, "Characterestics of the keys", was critical of Schubart having overlooked the basic distinctions inherent in the major and minor modes. He felt that it may be assumed that the major was masculine and active, while the minor was feminine and passive. Simple emotions were best expressed in simpler tonalities, while complex emotions sounded better in less familiar, strange keys, Schumann stated;
"The emotional rise and fall can best be discerned by tracing one's course through the circle of fifths, moving upward from C, the high point will be reached with F#, midway in our journey from octave to octave, from which it descends through the flat keys back to C".

In his study of the character of the keys in Beethove's sketches, Paul Mies noted that Ludwig frequently chanaged his mind about the key, though less often in vocal worksw than in the instrumental. He drew attention to the three specific inscriptions in Beethoven's hand: (1) C major, Merry and cheerfull.
(2) C minor, sad. (3) B minor, black key.

E flat major was associated with elegant, tender, or graceful moods.

Beethoven stated that the D minor slow movement Largo e mesto of the Piano Sonata in D major, Opus 10,no.3, was a reflection of the "state of a melancholy person's soul".
He specified that the principal theme was always to be repeated in the tempo, according to the individual meaning of each phrase.

On the Missa Solemnis in D, Op.123,
Beethoven informed Johann Andreas Streicher, "My chief aim when I was composing this grand Mass was to awaken and permanently instil religious feelings not only into the singers but also into the listeners".

The Cavatina from the quartet in B-flat,Opus,130, always replicated an emotional effect on Beethoven - "Never did my own music produce such an effect upon me; even now when I recall this work it still costs me a tear".




[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited September 07, 2003).]

[urtextmeister]

The preceding post should put to rest the notion that composers never associated keys with emotions.
Regarding that John Williams bit. It's a little confusing. Say he is writing "in C" but finds himself using five sharps consistently. He would then choose the key of B major to reduce the number of accidentals? That's a lot of unnecessary sharp writing!
If you mean he is truly writing in the key of c and not just writing with no sharps or flats in the key signature, he still would not reduce the number of sharps and flats by starting this way and transposing (an f# in the key of C would still come out as a b natural in the key of F or a G# in the key of D). There would be the same number of accidentals.
The idea that he transposes music to fit an instrument is plausible. There is a Bach C minor keyboard concerto that, when transcribed for oboe and violin, is in d minor. Many other examples of that.
Yes there are practical concerns regarding key choice. There are examples of an opera singer deciding at the last minute that an aria is in the "wrong" key. The composer comes in and transposes it. Because he wants that dusky amber that he associates with that key? No. Because he wants the damn thing on stage that night!
However, there is a long tradition of associating emotions with keys and a lot of it has to do with tuning. If you tune a keyboard with just (beatless) intervals, you end up with a bit left over. Musicians realized this hundreds of years ago. Many people think that when Bach was writing the Well-tempered clavier, they had settled on divided this bit among all of the keys so that everything was equal. Wrong! The "Well" temperament that was used in 1722 was different from the "Equal" temperament that we use today. In Bach's day, C major was tuned to be much more cosonant and pure sounding than B major, which was quite jarring and harsh sounding.
Further, the Equal temperament we use today is still not completely equal. Different tuners distribute that little extra differently up and down the keyboard.
Not all keys are the same.

[Rod]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
Wrong! The "Well" temperament that was used in 1722 was different from the "Equal" temperament that we use today.

I have had to point this out myself in the past. A lot of people the think the two are one and the same. I have a recording where the notes state the keyboard 'is well but not equal tempered'. I think even my Concise Oxford Dictionary of Music is confused regarding this matter, I'll have a check tonight.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[spaceray]

[QUOTE]
Yes there are practical concerns regarding key choice. There are examples of an opera singer deciding at the last minute that an aria is in the "wrong" key. The composer comes in and transposes it. Because he wants that dusky amber that he associates with that key? No. Because he wants the damn thing on stage that night!


I think this is less true of singers today,most intelligent singers who have the opportunity to work with a composer on a new work will want to interpret the music as it was written. Modern scores are very detailed and if the composer wishes to change things in rehearsal it is up to the singer to adapt.

[urtextmeister]

Spaceray,
Good point. I was referring to Bel Canto era singers. Most opera singers today would not expect such special treatment. I am sure changing keys for singers benefit still goes on in the realm of pop music and musical theater, however.

[jman]

There's been two references to keys that I've never heard of. Where does F flat major and F flat minor fit in the whole key signature scheme????????

But I never knew this sort of subject could raise some sort of controversy!

[spaceray]

This is very true.I sing jazz and nothing in the fakebook that I use is in a good key for my lower voice .I am obliged to ask the pianist to transpose if I want to sing the standards.Of course if you have one of those glorious voices that can sing effortlessly from top to bottom you have no problem singing in all the keys.

[SR]

Originally posted by Chris:
I can hardly believe that. For one thing, it's totally pointless - if you are writing something, then you know right away what key it is in. If you mean that he composes everything truly in key of C major and then transposes to another key from there, I could see that. But that would not really affect the number of accidentals. So I guess I'm not really sure what you're getting at. What you are describing sounds like it could produce some wrong things. Suppose, for example, he writes a piece in the key of C and there are no accidentals anywhere in the piece, so he says, "Yep, key of C." But just because there are no accidentals does not mean it is really in the key of C. Perhaps it is in the key of G, but he used no F's or F#'s in the piece, so he didn't discover it.

Apparently I didn't describe well enough. Mr Williams prefers to start in C because it fits best in his thought process. As the piece develops and modulates if he finds himself flating E A B continually and he stays there, he will go back, after the fact and toss the concept of C, putting three flats in the key signature so that he is not writing constant accidentals. To a degree you are correct if he works himself into E flat he was not really in C. He does not think interms of "I want a really heroic march so I'll write in E flat, because thats the heroic key"

Steve

[SR]

Originally posted by Amalie:
Schubart likened E minor to a maiden dressed in white, with a pink bow on her bosom, while G minor reflected dissatisfaction, uneasiness, resentment, and dislike. Goethe's friend K.F.Zelter maintained that every key was capable of expressing any emotion.

Robert Schumann, in his 1835 essay, "Characterestics of the keys", was critical of Schubart having overlooked the basic distinctions inherent in the major and minor modes. He felt that it may be assumed that the major was masculine and active, while the minor was feminine and passive. Simple emotions were best expressed in simpler tonalities, while complex emotions sounded better in less familiar, strange keys, Schumann stated;
"The emotional rise and fall can best be discerned by tracing one's course through the circle of fifths, moving upward from C, the high point will be reached with F#, midway in our journey from octave to octave, from which it descends through the flat keys back to C".

In his study of the character of the keys in Beethove's sketches, Paul Mies noted that Ludwig frequently chanaged his mind about the key, though less often in vocal worksw than in the instrumental. He drew attention to the three specific inscriptions in Beethoven's hand: (1) C major, Merry and cheerfull.
(2) C minor, sad. (3) B minor, black key.

E flat major was associated with elegant, tender, or graceful moods.

Beethoven stated that the D minor slow movement Largo e mesto of the Piano Sonata in D major, Opus 10,no.3, was a reflection of the "state of a melancholy person's soul".
He specified that the principal theme was always to be repeated in the tempo, according to the individual meaning of each phrase.

On the Missa Solemnis in D, Op.123,
Beethoven informed Johann Andreas Streicher, "My chief aim when I was composing this grand Mass was to awaken and permanently instil religious feelings not only into the singers but also into the listeners".

The Cavatina from the quartet in B-flat,Opus,130, always replicated an emotional effect on Beethoven - "Never did my own music produce such an effect upon me; even now when I recall this work it still costs me a tear".


[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited September 07, 2003).]

Thanks for the Scubert bit. Do you know if he was discussing piano music or orchestral or just in general. I wonder if Schubert thought that the maiden and bow visulization for e minor was generic for us all or just for him, or just for him in one section of one piece. That is part of my point that it is the musical phrase which inspires emotion. I don't say that music is non emotional, just that the key signature of itself can't inspire a same emotion in all people and if you're trying to say that C major is the cheerful key, then we all must be able to sense that, and it would imply that nothing moving or sad could be written in C major.

>>>Goethe's friend K.F.Zelter maintained that every key was capable of expressing any emotion.<<<<<

I think this is the truth. It is the skill or the composer that creates the emotion not the key signature. If Beethoven felt that b minor was a black key it may have had something to do with his perfect pitch ( when he could hear) Remember back when I entered this thread I did agree that there are some difference in sonorities, I just don't think those sonorities equate to a constant predictable emotional response in all people.

Your quotes about B's emotional responses or desire to evoke religious feelings are all well and good, but they don't mention that he felt he had been led to this emotion because of the key, or that he expected to get the response because of the key.

Regards

Steve

[Amalie]

Sorry Steve, I should have made it more clear about Schubart not to be confused with Franz Schubert.

What you are saying is very interesting. These searching questions I have asked in the past. Even though I am not a musician
I find the whole subject fascinating.
You may be interested in looking at, Barry Cooper's book, "The sketching of Form and Key". Perhaps Peter, or other musicians on this site owns a copy.

According to the book I quoted from earlier, also states that Beethoven owned a copy of C.F.D. Schubart's book on, Ideas on the Aesthetics of Music, (Vienna, 1806).
In this subjective description of individual tonalities, Schubart proposed that sharp keys reflected strong passions, while flat keys portrayed gentle-emotions.
According to Schindler, Beethoven agreed with some of Schubart's ideas up to a point, as for example with regard to his piano music and trios, especially in the minor keys. However, Beethoven considered that Schubart's ideas were ambiguous and impractical with regard to vocal, insrumental, and orchestral music, he felt strongly that the specific character of a passage of music was lost if transposed into another key.

Another interesting section has caught my eye.

IN QUESTA TOMBA OSCURA , Wo0 133.

Recurrent thoughts about death are one of the common symptoms of severe depression, and depressed composers are often attracted to the setting of morbid texts or poetry. The origin of Guiseppe Carpani's poem , In questa tomba oscura, was discussed in an article in hte November 1806 issue of the Journal des luxus und der Moden. At a musical soiree of the Countess Alexandra Rosalia Rzewuska, she improvised an aria on the piano, whereupon Carpani supplied a suitable text for the morbid tale.
After a lover has died of grief because his beloved did not respond to his advances, the beloved, stricken with remorse, weeps bitter tears over his grave;

In the dark tomb lay me to rest
When I was yet living, ungrateful wretch,
you should have thought of me.
Let my bare ghost at least enjoy peace
And bathe not my ashes with vain poisonous tears.

The text was sent to Beethoven and sixty-two other composers to be set to music.
According to the review on 19th October 1808 in the Leipziger Allegemeine Musikalische Zeitung, Beethoven's arietta was considered gloomy and melancholic, while the best songs had been composed, by Salieri and Sterkel. Beethoven's arietta, with piano accompaniment, In questa tomba oscura, Wo0 133, was published in 1808, by Mollo in Vienna. The title page shows the picture of a tomb with a weeping nymph.
The striking parallel with his own tragic love affair with Josephine Deym leaves little doubt that while composing this morbid song the depressed Beethoven may have imagined her weeping over his own tomb.


THE OPUS 69 CELLO SONATA

This wonderful Third Cello Sonata in A Major was dedicated to his friend Count Ignaz von Gleichenstein. On the manuscript Beethoven wrote, "Inter lacrimas et luctum [In the midst of tears and sorrows"].

As is the case with his humour, Beethoven's frequent spells of melancholy also had to be acted out in his music. He discovered new ways of expression in the diverse range of his melancholic moods - from pale gray to deepest black - in his music.
Indeed few other composers were so successful in the powerful expression of emotions in their music.


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[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited September 08, 2003).]