Key signatures

[jman]

This little thing occured to me a couple weeks ago when a a former student of my piano teacher's (now going for his doctorate degree) was at my lesson to give me some pointers for my upcoming exam...my teacher was asking about one part of the Op.79 sonata, whether it was supposed to be a sort of bird's cucoo. And he said that it probably was, cause the key of g-major was used to represent nature... I think that's the way to put it!!!

So it led me to thinking, are there any other "feelings" associated with certain key signatures? Whether in Beethoven's times or...whenever. I'm curious because it kinda confounds me how a composer chooses what key a piece will be in...because it could be in any key and be the same tune

so...what makes one key different from another????

[Peter]

A very interesting subject. In Baroque days composers were limited in key choice by the capablities of the instruments (particularly brass) - consequently there is a predominance of keys such as C,G,D and F - after Bach's well tempered Clavier things began to change. Amongst classical composers Haydn was actually one of the most experimental with symphonies in keys as remote as F# minor and B major. For certain composers, particular keys seem to be associated with particular moods - people speak of Beethoven's C minor and Mozart's D minor! Beethoven regarded B minor as a very black key and it is rare in his music - an example being the 4th bagatelle from Op.126. If you think of 2 other works in that key, Schubert's unfinished and Tchaikovsky's Pathetique, Beethoven was indeed right! The key of Ab in Beethoven and Schubert is a very warm lyrical key with works such as Op.110, Op.26 or Schubert's 2 impromtus in Ab.

Two Russian composers were fascinated with the idea of linking certain musical keys to particular colours - but came up with completely different associations. According to Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov, the key of C Major was "white," while Alexander Scriabin said it was "red." The two composers did agree, however, that the key of D major was "yellow" and that E-flat Major was either "bluish-grey" or "steely."

Here's a list of other key signatures, with Rimsky-Korsakov's colour choice given first, then Scriabin's color association: G Major (Brownish-gold/Orange-rose); A Major (Rosy/Green); E Major (Sapphire Blue/Bluish-white); B Major (Dark Blue/Bluish-white); F-sharp Major (Grayish-green/Bright blue); D-flat Major (Dusky/Violet); A-flat Major (Grayish-violet/Purple-violet); and E Major (Green/Red)

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited August 29, 2003).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
A very interesting subject. In Baroque days composers were limited in key choice by the capablities of the instruments (particularly brass) - consequently there is a predominance of keys such as C,G,D and F - after Bach's well tempered Clavier things began to change. Amongst classical composers Haydn was actually one of the most experimental with symphonies in keys as remote as F# minor and B major. For certain composers, particular keys seem to be associated with particular moods - people speak of Beethoven's C minor and Mozart's D minor! Beethoven regarded B minor as a very black key and it is rare in his music - an example being the 4th bagatelle from Op.126. If you think of 2 other works in that key, Schubert's unfinished and Tchaikovsky's Pathetique, Beethoven was indeed right! The key of Ab in Beethoven and Schubert is a very warm lyrical key with works such as Op.110, Op.26 or Schubert's 2 impromtus in Ab.

Two Russian composers were fascinated with the idea of linking certain musical keys to particular colours - but came up with completely different associations. According to Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov, the key of C Major was "white," while Alexander Scriabin said it was "red." The two composers did agree, however, that the key of D major was "yellow" and that E-flat Major was either "bluish-grey" or "steely."

Here's a list of other key signatures, with Rimsky-Korsakov's colour choice given first, then Scriabin's color association: G Major (Brownish-gold/Orange-rose); A Major (Rosy/Green); E Major (Sapphire Blue/Bluish-white); B Major (Dark Blue/Bluish-white); F-sharp Major (Grayish-green/Bright blue); D-flat Major (Dusky/Violet); A-flat Major (Grayish-violet/Purple-violet); and E Major (Green/Red)

This is a most interesting subject. I was always interested in the emotions correlating to certain keys. About the colours, I have never heard of this correlation and found it fascinating to read about. Do you know where they would come up with a colour like 'dusky' for example? and do the colours represent emotions like the
blues for serene, etc.? It's a captivating subject.
Here's a list I had for keys matching their emotions:
A major = Hard
A flat major =Tender
B flat major =Soft
C major =Neutral
c minor = Dramatic
c sharp minor = Bright
D major = Stately
D flat major = Dark
E major = Serene
E flat major = Heroic
F flat major = Soft
f minor = Melancholic
G major = Hard

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[melvyn]

Originally posted by jman:
So it led me to thinking, are there any other "feelings" associated with certain key signatures? Whether in Beethoven's times or...whenever. I'm curious because it kinda confounds me how a composer chooses what key a piece will be in...because it could be in any key and be the same tune

so...what makes one key different from another????

I've always wondered about this as well. I know it is well-known that Beethoven, and others, used different keys to represent different moods, I have seen a list similar to the one above. I just don't understand how this mechanism can work. Surely, unless a listener has perfect pitch, it is not possible for him to know what key a piece of music is written in. It sounds exactly the same in any key.

Yes, I can understand the difference between major and minor keys because the notes are actually different, but I can't see how starting a piece of music on a different note can alter the mood of it!

I went to a lecture once where this effect was demonstrated, and the majority of the audience couldn't tell any difference when the same tune was played in different keys. One or two people could tell what key it was in, but even they couldn't detect any change in mood. To them, it was just the same piece of music being played in a different key. The way the music was played (tempo, dynamics, etc.) had a far greater effect.

So does this effect exist or is it just a myth?

Melvyn.

[Peter]

Originally posted by melvyn:
I've always wondered about this as well. I know it is well-known that Beethoven, and others, used different keys to represent different moods, I have seen a list similar to the one above. I just don't understand how this mechanism can work. Surely, unless a listener has perfect pitch, it is not possible for him to know what key a piece of music is written in. It sounds exactly the same in any key.

Yes, I can understand the difference between major and minor keys because the notes are actually different, but I can't see how starting a piece of music on a different note can alter the mood of it!

I went to a lecture once where this effect was demonstrated, and the majority of the audience couldn't tell any difference when the same tune was played in different keys. One or two people could tell what key it was in, but even they couldn't detect any change in mood. To them, it was just the same piece of music being played in a different key. The way the music was played (tempo, dynamics, etc.) had a far greater effect.

So does this effect exist or is it just a myth?

Melvyn.

Well I think to some extent it does exist but you need to be very sensitive to it - although I don't have perfect pitch I can usually tell what key a piece is in - sometimes I get it wrong! Another factor to take into account here is that pitch has altered and there is about a semitone difference from Mozart's time - pitch would also have varied from city to city.

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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by melvyn:
I've always wondered about this as well. I know it is well-known that Beethoven, and others, used different keys to represent different moods, I have seen a list similar to the one above. I just don't understand how this mechanism can work. Surely, unless a listener has perfect pitch, it is not possible for him to know what key a piece of music is written in. It sounds exactly the same in any key.

Yes, I can understand the difference between major and minor keys because the notes are actually different, but I can't see how starting a piece of music on a different note can alter the mood of it!

I went to a lecture once where this effect was demonstrated, and the majority of the audience couldn't tell any difference when the same tune was played in different keys. One or two people could tell what key it was in, but even they couldn't detect any change in mood. To them, it was just the same piece of music being played in a different key. The way the music was played (tempo, dynamics, etc.) had a far greater effect.

So does this effect exist or is it just a myth?

Melvyn.

When I've transposed music from one key to another I feel that it alters completely the mood of the piece. Imagine the 5th Symphony in d minor or b minor. First, the ranges of the instruments would be altered, changing some of the color of the work. Then, our own perceptions of where the themes are would be altered--either darker or brighter, depending on which direction the transposition might move the theme. I think the timbres of the instruments would make the biggest difference as they would play in a different register.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Peter:
Another factor to take into account here is that pitch has altered and there is about a semitone difference from Mozart's time - pitch would also have varied from city to city.

Further to this remark I found this article -

"On July 27, 1987, at its meeting in Toronto, the International Society of Piano Builders and Technicians unanimously renewed their support for A=440 as the international pitch standard for piano manufacturers and for modern piano and orchestral tuning. The advantages for the acceptance of A=440 by all makers of modern musical instruments for use in concert halls and recording studios seems obvious. Unfortunately, the question of musical pitch is even more complicated today than it was fifty years ago when an International Conference in London also recommended the international use of A=440. The history of musical pitch as it relates to piano tuning has important consequences. Stringed-keyboard music written in the Baroque and Classic periods (including the music of J.S. Bach, Handel, Joseph Haydn, W.A. Mozart, C.P.E. Bach and Beethoven) was originally intended to be played at a low pitch which ranged from A=420 to A=430, nearly a semitone lower than A=440. Obviously, the musical result of playing harpsichord and early piano music at A=440 is considerably different from the less brilliant low pitch the composers originally intended. In the Romantic Period pitch skyrocketed upward well past A=440 and it fluctuated wildly according to location and performing arena. For example, in 1879 Steinway in New York used a tuning fork which produced A=457.2. While Chickering in Boston preferred A=435, the international pitch standard established by a French Commission in 1859. Still it is likely that most of the late 19th-century pianos (grands, squares and uprights) built in the United States after the Civil War (1865) were tuned at a pitch higher than A=440.


There is a rapidly growing trend to play Baroque- and Classic-period music on period instruments. Major cities such as London, New York, Amsterdam, Vienna and Toronto now have orchestras which are solely devoted to performing early music on period instruments at original pitch. Recently all of Mozart's symphonies and piano concertos and the piano concertos of Beethoven have been recorded using period instruments.1 Performers in early music ensembles will never consider using A=440 as a pitch standard because music written before 1830 sounds closer to the composer's original intentions when performed at low pitch. 2 At present there is still no trend to play music of the late Romantic period at high pitch."



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'Man know thyself'

[OboeKing]

This is a subject that interests me very much as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Beethoven at one point described E flat major as his personal 'heroic key.' It is indeed, I think, a very big, bold and grand key. I mean look at the choice of key for the Eroica!

I was not aware of the key of G major being described as a nture key. I was always told (and there is evidence in the Pastoral), that the key of F major was more of a nature key.

My 4 favourite Beethoven keys are D major, A major, D minor, and C minor. I have a tendency to enjoy keys where there are sharps in the major and flats in the minor rather more, although that said, A flat Major is one of my all time favourite key signatures. There is something very lush, tranquil and serene about the sounds coming from it. Just improvise a chord sequence with the chords A flat, E flat and D flat, holding down a deep A flat at octaves throughout in the left hand, all pianissimo. See what I mean? Beautiful!

Must be off, Mahler's 1st Symphony is being performed on BBC 2 tonight!

Regards,
Michael

[Amalie]

One of my favourite notes is the powerfully beautiful, yet melancholic F# that Beethoven employs in the beautiful Adagio Sostenuto, in the Hammerclavier Sonata, which is the longest and most elevated of all music, and for me reaches new sublime regions. The F# note burns into my soul.
I also love the profound opening notes of the Adagio.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Amalie:


I also love the profound opening notes of the Adagio.

Interestingly the opening two notes were an afterthought, yet you can barely imagine the movement without them.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited September 01, 2003).]

[Rod]

Concerning pitch, of the many period instrument Handel recordings I have where the pitch is identified in the notes, they are all 415. With Beethoven 430. There is also the issue of temperament, you should never hear of equal temperament with Handel keyboard recordings. The same should really be the case with Beethoven I think.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited August 31, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
There is also the issue of temperament, you should never hear of equal temperament with Handel keyboard recordings. The same should really be the case with Beethoven I think.

That's right as it wasn't the standard norm until mid 19th century. Broadwood didn't adopt equal temperament until 1840.


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
That's right as it wasn't the standard norm until mid 19th century. Broadwood didn't adopt equal temperament until 1840.

Thing is, even some of the Beethovenian fortepianos are tuned to equal temperament these days, so they can hardly be regarded as authentic in this respect. One can sometimes notice significant differences to the sound when the various old tuning methods are adopted. Perhaps the equal temperament is one of the reasons why the modern piano sounds too easy on the ear to me, together with the thick tone I just can't engage with it.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited September 01, 2003).]

[Chaszz]

I have also puzzled over how one key can really sound much different from another key, but the composers say so, so I decided it must be based in the ranges of the instuments in the orchestra. If in one key, many of the significant instruments are in their lower and middle ranges, then it won't sound as bright as another key where lots of them are in their middle and higher ranges. But then the next question is, what about the piano? Would Beethoven's 'heroic' key be the same on the piano as for the orchestra? If so, does the piano have about the same range as the average of the instuments in the orchestra? Or since its range is greater, do most of the instruments fall somewhere in the middle of the piano's range?

Chaszz

[jman]

well, I can't say I know much about the whole frequencies and technical aspects of the tones and what-not...nor if there's a difference between the sounds of keys in an orchestra and a piano...but still, I tried the first motife of the 5th symphony on my piano in C minor, then D minor, and then G minor, and I don't think it's quite the same...I'm quite certain there's some subtle difference in the keys...

Joy, I don't think I could disagree with you more with your matching of emotions to keys!!! but I guess that goes to show that there's a very different taste between people... as for me...

A major = very bright and springy
A flat major= tender--does sound good to me
B flat major = very boastful almost...a loud sort of key
C major =Neutral, yes I agree there.
c minor = violent emotions.
c sharp minor = eerie and dark (I think of, say a thunder-storm)
D major = Very happ
D flat major = I guess 'Dark' if used in combination with C#-, I could see this as dark (as in Chopin's Prelude op.28 no.15
E major = Beauty
E flat major = Yes, heroic fits here...after hearing Eroica, nothing else really can fit...
F Major = adventure...I think..
f minor = Anger
G major = light, and fluffy, sorta....!

To the OboeKing, I tried a little improvisation in your sequence...and tried it starting in D+, E+ and F+...nothing is quite like it. I also did it in minor keys that that was pretty cool.

And also, going back to the idea that made me interested in this issue...does anyone else think that the op. 79 sonata could be 'referring' to a bird-cucoo...the part I'm meaning is the first movement, i.e.- bars 59-74. And there's 3 other passages like that.. my teacher had a fancy word for it but I just referred to it as the 'cross-over section'. Because I have seen, when I've been looking at recorded collections of hte sonatas, op.79 referred to as 'Cucoo'...


[This message has been edited by jman (edited September 02, 2003).]