mozart+beethoven

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Had Mozart lived, I think the compositional dialogue between him and Beethoven would have been very fruitful and no one can even imagine what would have happened. Perhaps an advanced civilization from another star took Mozart from us early, because otherwise the human race would have advanced too far too fast and been a threat to them too soon.

I agree (except for the bit about the advanced civilization; let them show themselves if they want us to believe in them!). Just look at Haydn's late works: increasingly intense and romantic, while retaining all the qualities for which Papa Haydn was noted.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
.. Just look at Haydn's late works: increasingly intense and romantic, while retaining all the qualities for which Papa Haydn was noted.

Ha! This is precisely the point that seems to be so often missed during the "fantasy dialogues" that we indulge in here so often. People seems intent on referring in the most general terms to composers works as though they were totally static. Nothing could be further from the truth, as you note above. And speaking of Haydn, even though he poked gentle fun at B, if he was really seriously intent on harpooning him, he was most capable of doing so. I look at his calling B "Our Grand Mogul" to be an endearment compared to what he could have called him, since B did act rather rudely towards him more than once. The art of music advanced so far in Haydn's lifetime, with him leading the way nearly the whole time, it is hard to imagine that if he weren't in his 80's at the time, that he would not have been 100% in B's camp.

Regards,
Gurn

[SR]

It's interesting reading peoples opinions on the meeting between the two men. I also enjoy the idea of a meeting. I don't however believe it happened. I find that Beethoven enthusiasts are more willing to believe in the meeting than Mozart's. After all isn't it appealing to a Beethoven lover to have had their boy seen by the greatest of the time who saw the coming greatness in the kid. It's what Beethoven lovers would want.

I think it is important to note a few things. A huge amount of Mozarts letters survive and don't mention Beethoven. A large amount of Beethoven's do also and he does not mention a meeting. The story of Beethoven admiration of Mozarts c minor Piano Concerto does not include Beethoven saying anything about a meeting. No eyewitness ever said anything about a meeting. Haydn, who knew and admired Mozart and taught Beethven never mentions a meeting.

After Mozarts death the first biographers and earliest writings we have don't mention a meeting.

Niemetschek 1798 wrote the first Mozart bio with help from the widow Constanze and never mentions a meeting.

"The Mozart Pilgrimage" travel Diaries of V and M Novello who sought out and talked to Mozarts widow and dying sister never mention a meeting.

Georg N Nissen's 1828 bio of Mozart, never mentions a meeting. Nissen is the widow Mozart's second husband, and Constanze had massive input. Note also this date as this book was being written after Beethovens fame was established and during the period of or right after his death. Wouldn't it have been included that the great men both now dead had met ? Here it would be considered a value for Mozart's memory that he once met and recognized early the greatness of the recently deceased giant Beethoven.

Edward Holmes 1845 bio in English. He also does not mention a meeting.

Otto Jahn 1865 Now the meeting is discussed. Long after all participants and family are unavailable to refute.


It seems rather apparent to me that this meeting was a posthumous invention of the romantic age, but I wish it were real myself.
BTW I own copies of the Niemetschek, Holmes, and Novello books

Regards

Steve

[This message has been edited by SR (edited July 29, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by SR:
It's interesting reading peoples opinions on the meeting between the two men. I also enjoy the idea of a meeting. I don't however believe it happened. I find that Beethoven enthusiasts are more willing to believe in the meeting than Mozart's. After all isn't it appealing to a Beethoven lover to have had their boy seen by the greatest of the time who saw the coming greatness in the kid. It's what Beethoven lovers would want.

I think it is important to note a few things. A huge amount of Mozarts letters survive and don't mention Beethoven. A large amount of Beethoven's do also and he does not mention a meeting. The story of Beethoven admiration of Mozarts c minor Piano Concerto does not include Beethoven saying anything about a meeting. No eyewitness ever said anything about a meeting. Haydn, who knew and admired Mozart and taught Beethven never mentions a meeting.

After Mozarts death the first biographers and earliest writings we have don't mention a meeting.

Niemetschek 1798 wrote the first Mozart bio with help from the widow Constanze and never mentions a meeting.

"The Mozart Pilgrimage" travel Diaries of V and M Novello who sought out and talked to Mozarts widow and dying sister never mention a meeting.

Georg N Nissen's 1828 bio of Mozart, never mentions a meeting. Nissen is the widow Mozart's second husband, and Constanze had massive input. Note also this date as this book was being written after Beethovens fame was established and during the period of or right after his death. Wouldn't it have been included that the great men both now dead had met ? Here it would be considered a value for Mozart's memory that he once met and recognized early the greatness of the recently deceased giant Beethoven.

Edward Holmes 1845 bio in English. He also does not mention a meeting.

Otto Jahn 1865 Now the meeting is discussed. Long after all participants and family are unavailable to refute.


It seems rather apparent to me that this meeting was a posthumous invention of the romantic age, but I wish it were real myself.
BTW I own copies of the Niemetschek, Holmes, and Novello books

Regards

Steve

[This message has been edited by SR (edited July 29, 2003).]

Well you may be right - however we know that Beethoven told Czerny that he had often heard Mozart play (either in public or in private), we know the whole purpose of going to Vienna was to study with Mozart and that he was well received by the best known art-loving families of the aristocracy. We have Carl Holz's famous account of the meeting and we know Beethoven was in Vienna for around 2 weeks - is it likely he made no effort to contact the man who was the whole reason for this trip?

Actually there are very few letters from Beethoven surviving before the 1790's and in Mozart's case, his letters of the time are naturally concerned with his father's illness and death.

Where I do agree is that in the short time Beethoven was there he would most certainly not have received any lessons from Mozart.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited July 30, 2003).]

[SR]

Hi Peter...

I have no problem with the idea that during those two weeks B may have heard M in concert, although I question your use of the word "often". Is it known what the dates are of B's arrival and departure from Vienna ?
I'd like to see if I can ascertain anything of Mozarts schedule during those weeks. His letters are sometimes quite clear about where and when he played. There is also another book I've got by Eric Deutsch that is a documentary bio. It attempts to track Mozarts life in the public documents.

Regards

Steve

[Peter]

Originally posted by SR:
Hi Peter...

I have no problem with the idea that during those two weeks B may have heard M in concert, although I question your use of the word "often". Is it known what the dates are of B's arrival and departure from Vienna ?
I'd like to see if I can ascertain anything of Mozarts schedule during those weeks. His letters are sometimes quite clear about where and when he played. There is also another book I've got by Eric Deutsch that is a documentary bio. It attempts to track Mozarts life in the public documents.

Regards

Steve

It was actually Carl Czerny who said Beethoven told him that he had 'often heard Mozart play'. I believe Beethoven was in Vienna from 7-20 April 1787.

The story that Beethoven improvised for Mozart comes from Carl Holz and if we compare it to Beethoven's later 'audition' with Johann Schenk in 1793 there are similarities - in Schenk's own account Beethoven improvised at the piano and astounded him with his artisitry and genius.



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'Man know thyself'

[arbaqi]

hallo every body:
i'm sorry i set the topic and didn't contribute to that extent even though i benefited from the precious information inside.
i have been preparing for new training courses in boston so that is why.
well i went back to some refernces that were translated from the prague library about the greatest composers lives and there i read sbout mozart life and through that it was mentioned that this meeting took place,but through that as well was the ugly fact that mozart wasn't seen in the eyes that the world see him right now or in the period after his death and poses the question of to what extent did that barely mentioned meeting affected a great composer with that renovation (romantic)vision.
building on that and other information that the magic fluit as well as another opera that were written in german language.
i think that it was mozart vision that inspired beethoven to start a new way in music ,and that wasn't to that extent because beethoven used to review his compositions many many time before publishing them while mozart published a lot without a review.
and there is another point about mozart which plenty say that it is the real effect that beethoven took after is the selfpride and the refuse to be just an emploee to the prince or the governer of the county.

[Peter]

Originally posted by arbaqi:
hallo every body:
i'm sorry i set the topic and didn't contribute to that extent even though i benefited from the precious information inside.
i have been preparing for new training courses in boston so that is why.
well i went back to some refernces that were translated from the prague library about the greatest composers lives and there i read sbout mozart life and through that it was mentioned that this meeting took place,but through that as well was the ugly fact that mozart wasn't seen in the eyes that the world see him right now or in the period after his death and poses the question of to what extent did that barely mentioned meeting affected a great composer with that renovation (romantic)vision.
building on that and other information that the magic fluit as well as another opera that were written in german language.
i think that it was mozart vision that inspired beethoven to start a new way in music ,and that wasn't to that extent because beethoven used to review his compositions many many time before publishing them while mozart published a lot without a review.
and there is another point about mozart which plenty say that it is the real effect that beethoven took after is the selfpride and the refuse to be just an emploee to the prince or the governer of the county.

I think you raise some interesting points - whether or not the two met (and as you know I think it likely they did) Beethoven would have been aware of Mozart's independence as a musician - this must have made an impression. Out of all Mozart's operas it is the Magic flute that Beethoven was known to admire most (he wrote 2 sets of variations on themes from it).

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'Man know thyself'

[arbaqi]

hallo every body:
i'm still a bit uncertain about the extent of the influence or inspiration that mozart has been to beethoven,so if any one can provide a certain or approximate date since which mozart music was beginning to be very famous,and during this particular period what was beethoven works that have been published???
iy might be alittle stupid but i really needed to check this particular point.
thank you all.
thank you peter for the correction.

[Peter]

Originally posted by arbaqi:
hallo every body:
i'm still a bit uncertain about the extent of the influence or inspiration that mozart has been to beethoven,so if any one can provide a certain or approximate date since which mozart music was beginning to be very famous,and during this particular period what was beethoven works that have been published???
iy might be alittle stupid but i really needed to check this particular point.
thank you all.
thank you peter for the correction.

Hard to imagine a time when Mozart wan't famous - even as a 6 year old he was known throughout Europe. Certainly by the mid 1770's (when Beethoven was still a boy) his music was well known. In Bonn the elector Maximillian Franz was a great fan of Mozart and saw to it that his latest works were available to his musicians - thus Beethoven would have been exposed at an early age to Mozart's operas, concertos, symphonies and chamber music.

The period you are referring to is really the 1780's and you can see a list of Beethoven's works on this site www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/composition.html

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'Man know thyself'