mozart+beethoven

[arbaqi]

hallo everybody:
about a week ago i was reading about mozart life when something really drew my attention when the author emphasized that beethoven was affected to a very fyrther extent than taught by mozart, and the former didn't pay that attention to young beethoven and he didn't happen to his mind that this person that played the piano infront of him will be the world-wide most famous composer.
all that i have mentioned above was to set the question that beethoven spoke a lot about his relation with mozart and how this really affected him very much so would you thing that the author made a terrible mistake or was it beethoven that really exagerating the relationship with mozrt???
the auther got his information from prague(the capital of hungary as i thing as there is a famous music library as wrote by the auther.

[SR]

The two men had no "relationship" There is no evidence they ever met. Beethoven went to Vienna to meet and study with Mozart. Within two weeks he returned home due to illness of his mother. By the time he returned to Vienna, Mozart was dead. There is a two week period where it's possible they met. A posible meeting is not the same as evidence of a meeting. During that period where a meeting might have happened it would not have been an insult for Mozart to have not been wowed by the young Ludwig. At that time Mozart was a star, Beethoven was an unknown kid.

Beethoven was an admirerer of Mozarts music. Beethoven wrote several theme and variations on Mozart opera themes. Beethoven once stated regarding Mozart's c minor piano concerto that "we will never be able to write music like this" If that quote is accurate Beethoven was wrong, he did write music as good. I have no doubt that Mozart had he lived would have admired Beethovens work.

Regards

Steve

[This message has been edited by SR (edited June 25, 2003).]

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by arbaqi:
prague (the capital of hungary)

Prague is the capital of the Czech Republic.

[Chaszz]

'Beethoven met Mozart when Beethoven was sixteen years old. Mozart listened to Beethoven play and was not terribly impressed, until he gave Beethoven a theme to improvise upon. After listening to him, Mozart is said to have said "Keep your eyes on him; someday he will give the world something to talk about." '

This is from the site http://www.aetv.com/class/bioproject...funfacts.html. Although I can't vouch for the
accuracy of this site, I have read this anecdote several times before.

- Chaszz

[SR]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
'Beethoven met Mozart when Beethoven was sixteen years old. Mozart listened to Beethoven play and was not terribly impressed, until he gave Beethoven a theme to improvise upon. After listening to him, Mozart is said to have said "Keep your eyes on him; someday he will give the world something to talk about." '

Historians generally atribute this to a romantic notion of a meeting, "wouldn't it be wonderful if only...". I've never read nor met anyone who has a shred of hard evidence of a meeting. By evidence I mean a written mention by Mozart or Beethoven or at least a credible eyewitness who can be proven to have at least been in Vienna during the time period.

Regards

Steve

[arbaqi]

hi every body:
i am so sorry for being late in posting this reply.
i got to some references that agreed to alarge extent with what you all said,it was only a meeting and it was mozart spirit that affected beethoven to a large extent.
well thank you all for the precious information and sorryb for being late.

[bernardc]

I'm inclined to agree with Steve that a meeting COULD have taken place but there is no hard evidence.

I went down to Dumfries recently to hear John Suchet's talk on Beethoven and, sure enough, that very same quote (Mozart predicting the younger man's fame) was presented as if it were fact - I couldn't help smiling!

As for Mozart admiring Beethoven's music (if he had lived longer), I'm not so sure... Haydn it seems was rather bemused by the Eroica and Mozart esteemed this composer in the highest terms.

Beethoven himself was less than impressed with the moral complexities of Mozart's Figaro, preferring the clear-cut end to The Magic Flute. His favourite composer appeared to be Handel to whom he said he would "bend the knee".

[Rod]

Originally posted by bernardc:
I'm inclined to agree with Steve that a meeting COULD have taken place but there is no hard evidence.

I went down to Dumfries recently to hear John Suchet's talk on Beethoven and, sure enough, that very same quote (Mozart predicting the younger man's fame) was presented as if it were fact - I couldn't help smiling!

As for Mozart admiring Beethoven's music (if he had lived longer), I'm not so sure... Haydn it seems was rather bemused by the Eroica and Mozart esteemed this composer in the highest terms.

Beethoven himself was less than impressed with the moral complexities of Mozart's Figaro, preferring the clear-cut end to The Magic Flute. His favourite composer appeared to be Handel to whom he said he would "bend the knee".

I believe there is a quote from Beethoven whereby he criticises Mozart's manner of playing on the piano. This would indicated he had at least been in the same room as Mozart, should the quote be factual.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Gurn Blanston]

Thayer says of Rod's note above that it is likely that in the 2 week sojourn in Vienna that Beethoven heard Mozart play in a public forum of some type, and this is why he seemd to be familiar with Mozart's playing style. I think from reading it in context that it amounts to no more than the speculation and wishful thinking already referenced, since there is no evidence. This is, however, the only opportunity that B would have ever had to hear M, so if he did, then it is true. There are more than a few ironies concerning B's statement that Mozart played with a "choppy" style "no legato". B was well known when he first arrived in Vienna to have a very "hard" style of playing himself, and though he preferred legato later on, it was not his own natural style. And oddly, the main critics of his style were those adherents of Mozart (I suppose we would call them musical conservatives, would we not?) and Haydn who strongly disliked the course that B was setting in his composition, so they criticized his playing too. Certainly this presents some incongruities if all of these thoughts are not just subjective opinions or "catty" reactions to another's style. I think the context of B's quote about Mozart was to Czerny, his student, and it was not so much that Mozart didn't play well, it was more in the line of an admonition to not emulate that style himself, but rather to learn a more legato style such as B modified his own style to in time.
Regards,
Gurn

[Amalie]

It was an inopportune moment for Beethoven to arrive in Vienna to receive lessons from Mozart, whose father, Leopold, had become ill in March of 1787. Mozart having heard of his father's deterioration of his condition, wrote to express his concern.
Then in Mid-April, poor Mozart himself suffered a recurrence of serious illness.
Even so, according to Otto Jahn, Beethoven did meet Mozart and received lessons from him. Otto Jahn described the momentous event in the history of music;

Beethoven made his appearance in Vienna as a youthful musician of promise in the spring of 1787, but was only able to remain there for a very short time; he was introduced to Mozart, and played to him at his request. Mozart, considering the piece he performed to be a studied show-piece, was somewhat cold in his expression of admiration.
Beethoven remarking this, begged for a theme for improvisation, and inspired by the presence of the master he reverenced so highly, played in such a manner as gradually to engross Mozart's whole attention; turning quietly to the bystanders, he said emphatically. "Mark that young man; he will make himself a name in the word!"
Ferdinand Reis wrote, "During his first stay in Vienna, Beethoven had received some lessons from Mozart, but, he complained, Mozart never played for him. These few lessons, presumably in music theory, must have been given during the second/or third week of April that year.
Yet in communication from Czerny, Otto Jahn was informed that Beethoven had heard Mozart play; "He had a fine but choppy way of playing, no ligato".
Mozart gave no concerts during April 1787, nor is there any official record of him playing at court during that month.

After a fortnight in Vienna, Beethoven received the disturbing news that his mother was dying of pulmonary tuberculosis. Beethoven left Vienna on the 20th of April to be with his ailing mother and family.
"My yearning to see my ailing mother once more swept all obstacles aside so far as I was concerned, and enabled me to overcome the greatest difficulties"
His mother died 17th July 1787.
I note this month is the anniversary of her death.
Beethoven himself was unwell for many months after his return from Vienna, suffering what he described as asthma and melancholia, which would certainly have impeded compositional activity.


Lysander

*******************************************
The above information was taken from, Peter J. Davies - a retired consultant physician of internal medicine and gastroenterology who has devoted his studies to the health, personality, and creativity of Mozart and Beethoven.



[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited July 13, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Thayer says of Rod's note above that it is likely that in the 2 week sojourn in Vienna that Beethoven heard Mozart play in a public forum of some type, and this is why he seemd to be familiar with Mozart's playing style. I think from reading it in context that it amounts to no more than the speculation and wishful thinking already referenced, since there is no evidence. This is, however, the only opportunity that B would have ever had to hear M, so if he did, then it is true.

I think it highly likely that the two met - after all the whole purpose of Beethoven going to Vienna was to study with Mozart and it seems highly improbable to me that Beethoven would have been in Vienna for 2 weeks without making contact! I think it more probable that the meeting took place in Mozart's home in the Domgasse rather than in public. Interesting to note that Beethoven was in Vienna from 7th to 20th April - On the 19th Mozart completed the string quintet in C (k.515) and on the 24th, the Mozarts moved from the Domgasse to a less expensive flat in the Landstrasse.

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Thayer says of Rod's note above that it is likely that in the 2 week sojourn in Vienna that Beethoven heard Mozart play in a public forum of some type, and this is why he seemd to be familiar with Mozart's playing style. I think from reading it in context that it amounts to no more than the speculation and wishful thinking already referenced, since there is no evidence.
Gurn

I think this story of Mozart and Beethoven's famous meeting has always conjured up speculation. On the radio they had a discussion on it and was almost convinced it didn't happen! I personally think it did as that is one reason Beethoven went to Vienna in the first place and I don't think he would go and not try to meet him, what would have been the point? We may not have documented evidence (too bad) but the possiblility sure seems to be more than a 'dream'.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Joy:
I think this story of Mozart and Beethoven's famous meeting has always conjured up speculation. On the radio they had a discussion on it and was almost convinced it didn't happen! I personally think it did as that is one reason Beethoven went to Vienna in the first place and I don't think he would go and not try to meet him, what would have been the point? We may not have documented evidence (too bad) but the possiblility sure seems to be more than a 'dream'.

Joy,
I agree with your logic, it is likely that the meeting happened as you describe, as you say, what else would be the point of the trip? What I believe to be fancy is the quote attributed to Mozart concerning "keep your eye... etc.", this is what sounds like pure fiction. Certainly possible, equally improbable. I am not necessarily of the school which requires a photograph as evidence of an historical event, but SOMETHING would be nice, a diary entry by a person who was there would be acceptable, since this is a frequently used method of verification.
As to the other comments (not yours, Joy) concerning whether Mozart would have liked B's music had he lived; though he was often super-critical of other composers, I have read nothing attributed to him which criticizes a composer for being forward-looking and trying to advance the style, he is always after those who lag behind, and cannot even get the "old style" right. Certainly, he wouldn't have been bored by Beethoven! And I think that is what he was looking for in others, relief from tedium, as are we all. Also, Landon divides Mozart's work into 4 periods, and the 4th, which consists of works written after 1788, which he calls the precursors of an entirely new style, may in the long run have been far more like B's own. So who could say what time would have wrought?
Regards,
Gurn

[Joy]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Joy,
I agree with your logic, it is likely that the meeting happened as you describe, as you say, what else would be the point of the trip? What I believe to be fancy is the quote attributed to Mozart concerning "keep your eye... etc.", this is what sounds like pure fiction. Certainly possible, equally improbable. I am not necessarily of the school which requires a photograph as evidence of an historical event, but SOMETHING would be nice, a diary entry by a person who was there would be acceptable, since this is a frequently used method of verification.

Regards,
Gurn

I agree with you, Gurn, it certainly would be nice to have some kind of verification written down somewhere by someone! The quote by Mozart does sound rather fantastic, who knows, but this quote reminds me of the 'quote' that so many of us have heard of Beethoven saying on his deathbed, 'I shall hear in heaven'. A nice sentiment but completely false, probably made up by some 'romantic' who wanted to keep the legend and dream going.



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:

...As to the other comments (not yours, Joy) concerning whether Mozart would have liked B's music had he lived; though he was often super-critical of other composers, I have read nothing attributed to him which criticizes a composer for being forward-looking and trying to advance the style, he is always after those who lag behind, and cannot even get the "old style" right. Certainly, he wouldn't have been bored by Beethoven! And I think that is what he was looking for in others, relief from tedium, as are we all. Also, Landon divides Mozart's work into 4 periods, and the 4th, which consists of works written after 1788, which he calls the precursors of an entirely new style, may in the long run have been far more like B's own. So who could say what time would have wrought?
Regards,
Gurn

Had Mozart lived, I think the compositional dialogue between him and Beethoven would have been very fruitful and no one can even imagine what would have happened. Perhaps an advanced civilization from another star took Mozart from us early, because otherwise the human race would have advanced too far too fast and been a threat to them too soon.