Sex, sex, sex

[Grillparzer]

Originally posted by Rod:
One has to begin with the logical position that if there were anything damning in the diaries then Beethoven would have either destroyed the offending pages himself or had someone close do it for him during the last days (presuming Schindlers intervention happened after B's demise). It occured to me long ago that whatever Schindler censored could, at least to some degree, have concerned Schindler himself! Or there could be other factors not so attractive to Mr Solomon's vivid imagination.

Mr. Rod,
Logically this would seem to be true. However Thayer, even in 1867, holds that Schindler is totally unreliable even on the most mundane topics, so that cannot be the entire story. Thayer (who was not always correct either BTW) also relates that one of Beethoven's last wishes is that his biography be accurate no matter who was distressed by the truth, even if it be something bad about himself! So I do not know how this relates to the concept of Beethoven destroying evidence himself. I think he was actually more interested in truth than reputation, although those who followed after him have scarcely ever adhered to that.

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Adieu,
Franz

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[This message has been edited by Grillparzer (edited July 28, 2003).]

[Grillparzer]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
A recent study published by an evolutionary biologist holds that gossip was one of the main factors driving humanity's acquisition of speech. Because I post this doesn't mean I approve. Indeed I rather believe that worldwide fascination with gossip may be helping to drive us back to the cave epoch.

Chaszz

Mr. Chaszz,
Doesn't this merely demonstrate that people will never change? Despite the great "advancements" in civilization, the primary motivations for human behaviour remain unchanged after all these millenia! Comforting to know, somehow.



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Adieu,
Franz

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[Rod]

Originally posted by Grillparzer:
Mr. Rod,
Logically this would seem to be true. However Thayer, even in 1867, holds that Schindler is totally unreliable even on the most mundane topics, so that cannot be the entire story. Thayer (who was not always correct either BTW) also relates that one of Beethoven's last wishes is that his biography be accurate no matter who was distressed by the truth, even if it be something bad about himself! So I do not know how this relates to the concept of Beethoven destroying evidence himself. I think he was actually more interested in truth than reputation, although those who followed after him have scarcely ever adhered to that.

To be honest I don't think Beethoven would have wrote about any alleged sexual shenanigans in his diary in any case. But in any case an analysis of his general character makes the likelihood of such activity highly improbable.

Anyone who has read any kind of Beethoven biography will be aware of the large number of women he had an interest in over the years. Hardly the behaviour of a 'latent homosexual'. Also I suspect Beethoven would have been exposed as a homosexual for certain by now if in fact he was of this persuasion. History is littered with such exposures well before Beethoven's time so I don't see why it would be different with Beethoven himself.

The same has been said of Handel recently in the US by other pseudo researchers. What we know of his affairs of the heart amounts to one single anecdote! After this there is absolutely nothing. What evidence did they present? The text from some of his cantatas apparently have homosexual 'leanings', and the fact that he used castrati!

Heck, I'm not married. I hope Solomon is not working on my biography! His idea for the 'Immortal Beloved' is ridiculous and impossible to my mind.

PS Solomon has released a new 'opus' on Beethoven concerned with the last decade of his life. I haven't read any reviews but regardless it will not be on my shopping list.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited July 30, 2003).]

[Beyond Within]

im curious- what is the evidence that leads all biographers to say Tchiakovsky was homosexual?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
im curious- what is the evidence that leads all biographers to say Tchiakovsky was homosexual?

As far as I'm aware no one seriously doubts this view - as to the evidence it may well be more circumstantial than concrete, none the less pretty conclusive. Rumours were rife in his own lifetime and the authorities were aware of the situation. Much has been supressed and I believe it is virtually impossible even for biographers to obtain full access to the documents.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited July 30, 2003).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
im curious- what is the evidence that leads all biographers to say Tchiakovsky was homosexual?

I think among the circumstantial evidence was a brief and uncomfortable marriage for the sake of appearances, which only lasted a few weeks.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited July 30, 2003).]

[Joy]

This topic always seems to fascinate people regarding Beethoven's sex life and relationships. As much as I've read about him Ries stated, "he was never without love and always deeply involved." Dr. Bertolini, his physician from 1806 to 1816, confirmed that statement and according to him, "Beethoven had a predilection for graceful and fragile women, slender and beautiful." "Beethoven never showed that he was in love and kept his secrets hidden within himself." "She must be beutiful, nothing else but beautiful or else I would have to love myself." he once said to his friend Gleichenstein and asked him to find him a beautiful woman in Freiburg. There seemed to be a slew of women during his lifetime but never a wife. On his deathbed he lamented never having married and said to Hummel, "You are a lucky man, you have a wife who takes care of you, who is in love with you-but poor me!"

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
[B] I think among the circumstantial evidence was a brief and uncomfortable marriage for the sake of appearances, which only lasted a few weeks.

[B]

I agree that this could be among evidence. His marriage to Antonina Milyukova lasted nine weeks to be exact. He said, "a few more days and I should have gone mad." He attempted suicide by immersing himself in a river and caught only a cold. There was a woman in his life however, Nadejda von Meck, a wealthy widow who corresponded with him for several years but they never met. She loved his music and for fourteen years he received a generous allowance. She wrote, "there was a time when I was very anxious to make your acquaintance but now the more you fascinate me the more I fear your acquaintance, I prefer to think of you from afar." T wrote back, "You are afraid you will fail to find in my personality all those qualities with which your idealizing imangination has endowed me. And in that you are quite right." However, they did write thousands of letters to each other in the course of fourteen years.



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Beyond Within]

that adds up to nothing to me. Maybe he didnt love the women he married? He probably recieved pressure to get married and rushed it with the wrong women. Just because you arent with a women doesnt mean your gay. Maybe its inconvenient, or you havent found the right person, which might have been his case. Assumptions like that shouldnt be made.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
that adds up to nothing to me. Maybe he didnt love the women he married? He probably recieved pressure to get married and rushed it with the wrong women. Just because you arent with a women doesnt mean your gay. Maybe its inconvenient, or you havent found the right person, which might have been his case. Assumptions like that shouldnt be made.

I agree that on its own it doesn't mean a great deal (though the emotional breakdown and suicide attempt that followed does indicate something a little more serious than not loving someone!) However in context with everything else that is known it lends weight to the likelyhood that he was gay.

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'Man know thyself'

[Grillparzer]

Originally posted by Peter:
I agree that on its own it doesn't mean a great deal (though the emotional breakdown and suicide attempt that followed does indicate something a little more serious than not loving someone!) However in context with everything else that is known it lends weight to the likelyhood that he was gay.

If you are still interested in this topic, see this link for a little bio that discusses it, oddly, Peter, on your server! See the second subject, half down the page. In any case, from what I had heard, I never thought there was any doubt about this.

http://www.esosymph.freeserve.co.uk/tchaik.htm

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Adieu,
Franz

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[This message has been edited by Grillparzer (edited August 04, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by Grillparzer (edited August 04, 2003).]

[dawncejames]

[Just to change the subject completely, has anyone made a visit to Beethoven's home, or seen his grave? I'd imagine it would be quite expensive to go to where he once lived.

Dawn

]Originally posted by Grillparzer:
If you are still interested in this topic, see this link for a little bio that discusses it, oddly, Peter, on your server! See the second subject, half down the page. In any case, from what I had heard, I never thought there was any doubt about this.

http://www.esosymph.freeserve.co.uk/tchaik.htm

[/QUOTE]



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[Andrea]

Originally posted by Dawn:

Just to change the subject completely, has anyone made a visit to Beethoven's home, or seen his grave? I'd imagine it would be quite expensive to go to where he once lived.

Dawn

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I have many times since I live here in Heiligenstadt, in Vienna's 19th District. I live just a 5 min. walk from the house where Beethoven lived when he composed his Sym.#2 and where he wrote his "Heiligenstadt Testament".

Peter and Bernard from this forum were here last week and they too saw quite a few of Beethoven's addresses and his grave also. They were visiting Vienna and I had the pleasure of showing them all of the Beethoven-must-see places. I enjoy showing visitors my lovely, historical and musical city of Vienna. If any of you fellow forum members are ever in Vienna let me know and I can show you all of the Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Schubert and Johann Strauss places of interest.

[Peter]

Originally posted by dawncejames:
[Just to change the subject completely, has anyone made a visit to Beethoven's home, or seen his grave? I'd imagine it would be quite expensive to go to where he once lived.

Dawn

Strange coincidence as I've just arrived back from Vienna! See the thread 'Vienna experience'.

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'Man know thyself'

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Andrea:
...If any of you fellow forum members are ever in Vienna let me know and I can show you all of the Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Schubert and Johann Strauss places of interest.

Ooooooh!!! If I could possibly afford it I'd come in a metronome tap! At 200!

Can anyone tell us what the Tagebuch actually said? (I'd check this site but it's much more fun to converse on the forum.)