Sex, sex, sex

[Grillparzer]

Interesting quote in Solomon, page 262. Not sure what to make of it because he totally shies away from further discussion. Perhaps the noble minds that I have observed here can elucidate for me.

"We need not here explore the full implications of this free exchange of sexual favors among members of the Conversation Book circle; the latent homosexual aspects of this menage are quite on the surface."

There are a few interesting vignettes presented concerning wife borrowing etc. just before this, but then it abruptly changes topic. Any other info, opinions?


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Adieu,
Franz

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[Peter]

Who knows the context of Peters' remark to Beethoven? It may have been in jest - Beethoven certainly had a sense of humour! Schindler who destroyed many of the conversation books obviously thought the remark harmless enough. I think Solomon's implication that Beethoven was free with other men's wives and prostitutes goes against the evidence and everything we know about Beethoven's character - for a long time it was considered Beethoven may have had syphilis (something he would have had difficulty avoiding if Solomon is correct) but this has since been disproved.

I'm not suggesting Beethoven went to the grave a virgin, but in the absence of facts it will always remain a matter of speculation. It is also in my opinion of no consequence, rather a product of our age and its obsession with sex and knowing every intimate detail of a persons life.

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'Man know thyself'

[spaceray]

I have wondered if Beethoven's tummy trouble made getting intimate with ladies uncomfortable for him .He might have been embarrassed by flatulence or too frequent visits to the loo.He was human after all.
It seems we are just as fasinated about his sexual proclivities(unknown) as we are about whether he met with Mozart or not(unknown)
Although I venture to say that while there seem to be many fantastic lithographs showing a meeting of these two composers I have not seen any of him frolicking abed with high born (or otherwise )females.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:

I'm not suggesting Beethoven went to the grave a virgin, but in the absence of facts it will always remain a matter of speculation. It is also in my opinion of no consequence, rather a product of our age and its obsession with sex and knowing every intimate detail of a persons life.

And we can thank the idiots at Hollywood for enhancing this perspective in relationship to Beethoven. Hollywood is one of the biggest sources of misinformation ever.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Grillparzer:
Interesting quote in Solomon, page 262. Not sure what to make of it because he totally shies away from further discussion. Perhaps the noble minds that I have observed here can elucidate for me.

"We need not here explore the full implications of this free exchange of sexual favors among members of the Conversation Book circle; the latent homosexual aspects of this menage are quite on the surface."

There are a few interesting vignettes presented concerning wife borrowing etc. just before this, but then it abruptly changes topic. Any other info, opinions?

Franz,
I have also read this section with interest. I do not think it unnatural to be interested in the various proclivities of those who hold greatest interest to us. After all, being demonstrably human is merely another aspect for consideration. And who are we to say that this has no bearing on his music? If I were a creative person, then I believe that my happiness or lack of it would have an effect on those things that ARE in public view. Also, from a historical perspective, it is interesting to see that people are little different now than then. I am glad you brought this topic up.
Oh, the comment about Hollywood, while absolutely valid, has no bearing on this particular issue, MAynard Solomon is not associated with Hollywood in any wise, his biography of Beethoven is widely praised as being the most authoritative to date, so I think his insights here are just as valid as those on any other topic concerning B.
Regards,
Gurn

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by spaceray:
I have wondered if Beethoven's tummy trouble made getting intimate with ladies uncomfortable for him .He might have been embarrassed by flatulence or too frequent visits to the loo.He was human after all.
It seems we are just as fasinated about his sexual proclivities(unknown) as we are about whether he met with Mozart or not(unknown)
Although I venture to say that while there seem to be many fantastic lithographs showing a meeting of these two composers I have not seen any of him frolicking abed with high born (or otherwise )females.

Space,
Certainly the picture you present is not a happy one. Of course Thayer wrote long before Solomon, but I have found his preoccupation with diarrhea more disconcerting than Solomon's casual allusions to homosexuality amongst the Tagebuch circle ;-))
Regards,
Gurn

[Grillparzer]

Originally posted by Peter:
Who knows the context of Peters' remark to Beethoven? It may have been in jest - Beethoven certainly had a sense of humour! Schindler who destroyed many of the conversation books obviously thought the remark harmless enough. I think Solomon's implication that Beethoven was free with other men's wives and prostitutes goes against the evidence and everything we know about Beethoven's character - for a long time it was considered Beethoven may have had syphilis (something he would have had difficulty avoiding if Solomon is correct) but this has since been disproved.

I'm not suggesting Beethoven went to the grave a virgin, but in the absence of facts it will always remain a matter of speculation. It is also in my opinion of no consequence, rather a product of our age and its obsession with sex and knowing every intimate detail of a persons life.

Mr. Peter,
But surely a man who loved life so much could not have been virginal. Is this not an idealized hero-worship aspect? A man who also had in his library a book called "Detecting and Curing Venereal Diseases" must have had more than a passing interest in sex. I am not being prurient here, but it is a legitimate area for speculation. I maintain that it is just as speculative to say that Beethoven was entirely free of carnal desire as it is to say that he tomcatted around. Perhaps this is iconoclasm, but I do not see where allowing the man an expression of his humanity is in any way degrading to him, rather it exalts his human-ness, which can only be a good thing.




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Adieu,
Franz

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[Grillparzer]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Franz,
I have also read this section with interest. I do not think it unnatural to be interested in the various proclivities of those who hold greatest interest to us. After all, being demonstrably human is merely another aspect for consideration. And who are we to say that this has no bearing on his music? If I were a creative person, then I believe that my happiness or lack of it would have an effect on those things that ARE in public view. Also, from a historical perspective, it is interesting to see that people are little different now than then. I am glad you brought this topic up.
Oh, the comment about Hollywood, while absolutely valid, has no bearing on this particular issue, MAynard Solomon is not associated with Hollywood in any wise, his biography of Beethoven is widely praised as being the most authoritative to date, so I think his insights here are just as valid as those on any other topic concerning B.
Regards,
Gurn

Mr. Gurn,
Ah, a man after my own heart, I see. I look forward to seeing this topic develop. There are others here who always have much to say, perhaps they care to weigh in also?

Adieu,
Franz


[This message has been edited by Grillparzer (edited July 26, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Grillparzer:
Mr. Peter,
But surely a man who loved life so much could not have been virginal. Is this not an idealized hero-worship aspect? A man who also had in his library a book called "Detecting and Curing Venereal Diseases" must have had more than a passing interest in sex. I am not being prurient here, but it is a legitimate area for speculation. I maintain that it is just as speculative to say that Beethoven was entirely free of carnal desire as it is to say that he tomcatted around. Perhaps this is iconoclasm, but I do not see where allowing the man an expression of his humanity is in any way degrading to him, rather it exalts his human-ness, which can only be a good thing.

Well I said he probably wasn't a virgin - he wasn't a monk after all! But really so what? Why the desire to know who he slept with, when and how many times? This is the product of our age that has little respect for people, only a desire for sensation.

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'Man know thyself'

[Grillparzer]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well I said he probably wasn't a virgin - he wasn't a monk after all! But really so what? Why the desire to know who he slept with, when and how many times? This is the product of our age that has little respect for people, only a desire for sensation.

Mr. Peter,
No, I do not think that interest in sex in a product of our age, else we wouldn't all be here, no? Actually I think that puritanical professions of disinterest are a product of our age, due to the intense pressures to be politically correct nowadays. The things that you are railing about so much in your post above are not even the things that I was asking about in my original post! It is difficult to imagine that one can be content to totally ignore this aspect of Beethoven's life; on what basis?



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Adieu,
Franz

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[Peter]

Originally posted by Grillparzer:
Mr. Peter,
No, I do not think that interest in sex in a product of our age, else we wouldn't all be here, no? Actually I think that puritanical professions of disinterest are a product of our age, due to the intense pressures to be politically correct nowadays. The things that you are railing about so much in your post above are not even the things that I was asking about in my original post! It is difficult to imagine that one can be content to totally ignore this aspect of Beethoven's life; on what basis?

On the basis that you haven't anything (like Solomon) other than speculation to offer - I don't for one minute deny the importance of relationships in Beethoven's life (sexual or otherwise), but based on fact not supposition. Of course Beethoven had a healthy interest in sex - I haven't said otherwise and if you've read the letters from Josephine Von Brunsvik to Beethoven, this is quite clear! It has nothing to do with being puritanical, racist, homophobic, sexist or any of the other silly things one is accused of in the simple desire for the truth. As for the Solomon claim of 'latent homosexual aspects of this menage being quite on the surface' - well there are those who even accuse Beethoven of having had desires for his own brother and nephew - and where is the evidence for any of it? Well they pick lines from the letters and deliberately misquote and twist them to produce something that tenuously fits their theories.

I could easily concoct a theory of my own which actually is plausable - Czerny, Beethoven's friend and pupil also never married and it is possible and even probable he was gay and maybe they even had a relationship - if it were proven to be true I wouldn't be shocked or bothered in the least, but you must see that it is possible to twist anything and make it fit, which is why we must stick to the known facts.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited July 28, 2003).]

[Grillparzer]

Originally posted by Peter:
On the basis that you haven't anything (like Solomon) other than speculation to offer - I don't for one minute deny the importance of relationships in Beethoven's life (sexual or otherwise), but based on fact not supposition. Of course Beethoven had a healthy interest in sex - I haven't said otherwise and if you've read the letters from Josephine Von Brunsvik to Beethoven, this is quite clear! It has nothing to do with being puritanical, racist, homophobic, sexist or any of the other silly things one is accused of in the simple desire for the truth. As for the Solomon claim of 'latent homosexual aspects of this menage being quite on the surface' - well there are those who even accuse Beethoven of having had desires for his own brother and nephew - and where is the evidence for any of it? Well they pick lines from the letters and deliberately misquote and twist them to produce something that tenuously fits their theories.

I could easily concoct a theory of my own which actually is plausable - Czerny, Beethoven's friend and pupil also never married and it is possible and even probable he was gay and maybe they even had a relationship - if it were proven to be true I wouldn't be shocked or bothered in the least, but you must see that it is possible to twist anything and make it fit, which is why we must stick to the known facts.

Mr. Peter,
Ah, this is more like the discussion I wished to engender here. I also would not be shocked or bothered, I simply wish to know if any factual details exist, not wild speculation. I have not even heard of the things that you mention in your post above, so this is an advancement, no? Getting back to your original reply, as you have said Schindler pretty well censored the Tagebuch's, and yet not this part. The quotes in Solomon are fairly overt so S could not have missed them. One wonders how this came about, and what he actually DID censor, if anything. Having an opportunity to read the originals of these would be so illuminating. "Decaying fortresses", indeed!



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Adieu,
Franz

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[Peter]

Originally posted by Grillparzer:
Mr. Peter,
Ah, this is more like the discussion I wished to engender here. I also would not be shocked or bothered, I simply wish to know if any factual details exist, not wild speculation. I have not even heard of the things that you mention in your post above, so this is an advancement, no? Getting back to your original reply, as you have said Schindler pretty well censored the Tagebuch's, and yet not this part. The quotes in Solomon are fairly overt so S could not have missed them. One wonders how this came about, and what he actually DID censor, if anything. Having an opportunity to read the originals of these would be so illuminating. "Decaying fortresses", indeed!

Well yes I have always felt Schindler did us a great disservice in destroying evidence that may have shed light on many things. His was the puritanical response as he wished to subvert the truth. Beethoven didn't ask for this and he actually requested Schindler to present the whole picture. So we are left with a jig-saw and many bits missing - here lies the danger and even biographers as distinguished as Thayer were guilty of twisting facts. Solomon provides a physcological approach which I always find suspect - we have discussed at length here his assertion that Antonie Brentano was the Immortal beloved and generally the feeling is that Solomon is wrong! We have also dealt with the possibility that the Immortal beloved was a man - this we have quite easily been able to disprove!

Take a look at this page on my site for more info www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/immortal.html


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

One has to begin with the logical position that if there were anything damning in the diaries then Beethoven would have either destroyed the offending pages himself or had someone close do it for him during the last days (presuming Schindlers intervention happened after B's demise). It occured to me long ago that whatever Schindler censored could, at least to some degree, have concerned Schindler himself! Or there could be other factors not so attractive to Mr Solomon's vivid imagination.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited July 28, 2003).]

[Chaszz]

A recent study published by an evolutionary biologist holds that gossip was one of the main factors driving humanity's acquisition of speech. Because I post this doesn't mean I approve. Indeed I rather believe that worldwide fascination with gossip may be helping to drive us back to the cave epoch.

Chaszz