Wagner & Beethoven

[Grillparzer]

Chaszz,
Not that I am one to back off from a serious discussion of anything, however it seems difficult to discuss anything rationally with you who are not an absolutist. I suspect that paranoia is at work here, but I will leave it in deference to the others on the Forum, as this could continue ad infinitum. You may now take the above statement and make it say anything you wish, as is your wont. I understand Rod's frustration with you. However, one thing that you have misconstrued that is too simple to bother with, my "PS - Who are those people" related not to you at all, but to those named in the post I was replying to, who I assume to be pop singers (Puff Daddy & Eminem??). You may now turn THAT statement to mean anything you wish, also.


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Adieu,
Franz

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[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
The most important influence that Beethoven had upon Wagner was in W's declaring that the Ninth had brought the development of the symphony to its peak, and there could be no more symphonies, just combined orchestral/choral works. He thereafter devoted himself almost solely to opera. Whether one agrees with this declaration or not, and whether one likes or dislikes Wagner's works, the influence is tangible here. In the details of the posts on the thread, this major example of influence may have been overlooked or not stated, because it is so seemingly apparent and widely known.

Chaszz, in my earlier post I did point out the impact the 9th symphony had on Wagner, but this was in terms of his concluding that vocal music was superior to orchestral and that the choral finale was the only logical solution. I don't see that as Beethoven's influence so much as Wagner's own personal interpretation of the 9th. Personally I think Wagner would have been solely an opera composer like Verdi with or without Beethoven's 9th!

Do you not agree that Weber was a far more potent influence, especially Freischutz and the Wolf Glen's scene? Wagner's harmony was increasingly chromatic leading to the famous Tristan chord - this chromaticism stems from Bach and the early romanctics such as Spohr and Weber, not Beethoven who was not in sympathy with them. The consequent weakening of tonality is something you simply do not find in Beethoven.


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Chaszz, in my earlier post I did point out the impact the 9th symphony had on Wagner, but this was in terms of his concluding that vocal music was superior to orchestral and that the choral finale was the only logical solution. I don't see that as Beethoven's influence so much as Wagner's own personal interpretation of the 9th. Personally I think Wagner would have been solely an opera composer like Verdi with or without Beethoven's 9th!

Do you not agree that Weber was a far more potent influence, especially Freischutz and the Wolf Glen's scene? Wagner's harmony was increasingly chromatic leading to the famous Tristan chord - this chromaticism stems from Bach and the early romanctics such as Spohr and Weber, not Beethoven who was not in sympathy with them. The consequent weakening of tonality is something you simply do not find in Beethoven.

Nicely put Peter, I was 'talking' about many of these things the other day at the yahoo CM chat page and there was general agreement with your comments above, much to my surprise. I mentioned Weber's influence in particular. One guy said Bach was the first Romantic!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:
Chaszz, in my earlier post I did point out the impact the 9th symphony had on Wagner, but this was in terms of his concluding that vocal music was superior to orchestral and that the choral finale was the only logical solution. I don't see that as Beethoven's influence so much as Wagner's own personal interpretation of the 9th. Personally I think Wagner would have been solely an opera composer like Verdi with or without Beethoven's 9th!

Do you not agree that Weber was a far more potent influence, especially Freischutz and the Wolf Glen's scene? Wagner's harmony was increasingly chromatic leading to the famous Tristan chord - this chromaticism stems from Bach and the early romanctics such as Spohr and Weber, not Beethoven who was not in sympathy with them. The consequent weakening of tonality is something you simply do not find in Beethoven.

See in my earlier post on wider, spiritual influence rather than formal, technical influence. This gets back to the discussions we've had on Beethoven's influence on the Romantics in general. If you leave aside for the moment viewpoints that say (1) that the Romantics composed relatively worthless music and (2) that artistic influence is only formal and stylistic, not more deeply moral and spiritual, then Romanticism as it happened in music is inconceivable without Beethoven's example. It was not for nothing that Schubert asked to be buried near him, although as you say technically he was moving in a different direction.

I am too tempted here to cite a parallel situation in painting to forgo it. Titian was a classical painter who deeply influenced both Rubens and Rembrandt, whose forms and styles were much less classical and more on-the-surface emotional (or romantic) than his. And in both cases had Titian been able to see their art he would probably have disliked it, unless he had been able to live for a time in their era and begin to understand it.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
See in my earlier post on wider, spiritual influence rather than formal, technical influence. This gets back to the discussions we've had on Beethoven's influence on the Romantics in general. If you leave aside for the moment viewpoints that say (1) that the Romantics composed relatively worthless music and (2) that artistic influence is only formal and stylistic, not more deeply moral and spiritual, then Romanticism as it happened in music is inconceivable without Beethoven's example. It was not for nothing that Schubert asked to be buried near him, although as you say technically he was moving in a different direction.

I am too tempted here to cite a parallel situation in painting to forgo it. Titian was a classical painter who deeply influenced both Rubens and Rembrandt, whose forms and styles were much less classical and more on-the-surface emotional (or romantic) than his. And in both cases had Titian been able to see their art he would probably have disliked it, unless he had been able to live for a time in their era and begin to understand it.

Well it certainly isn't my view that the Romantics composed worthless music! I'm not sure about the spiritual influence either - I mean the immediate background of German Romantic opera is the Singspiel, exemplified in Mozart's Magic flute. In the early 19th century the singspiel was imbued with romantic elements via the influence of French opera and pieces such as E.T.A.Hoffmann's Undine, Spohr's Faust and Weber's Der Freischutz embody the new style -characteristics are plots drawn from medieval history, legend or fairy tale, nature and the supernatural. Fidelio doesn't exactly spring to mind here as the spiritual father!

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'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well it certainly isn't my view that the Romantics composed worthless music! I'm not sure about the spiritual influence either - I mean the immediate background of German Romantic opera is the Singspiel, exemplified in Mozart's Magic flute. In the early 19th century the singspiel was imbued with romantic elements via the influence of French opera and pieces such as E.T.A.Hoffmann's Undine, Spohr's Faust and Weber's Der Freischutz embody the new style -characteristics are plots drawn from medieval history, legend or fairy tale, nature and the supernatural. Fidelio doesn't exactly spring to mind here as the spiritual father!

Peter, I know it's not your view that Romantic music is worthless, I was addressing others who might be reading the post as well.

With all respect, I still think you are concentrating on the trees rather than the forest. For that matter, Wagner's literary conceptions come as much from contemporary scholarly work on German mythology as from earlier operas.

But, even on the detail level: I've just listened to the overtures from The Magic Flute and Der Freischutz. Try to imagine the latter as a development out of the classical era without the intervention of Beethoven. Can you, especially the horn passage near the beginning of the overture which is so reminiscent of the 6th symphony?

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Grillparzer:
Chaszz,
Not that I am one to back off from a serious discussion of anything, however it seems difficult to discuss anything rationally with you who are not an absolutist. I suspect that paranoia is at work here, but I will leave it in deference to the others on the Forum, as this could continue ad infinitum. You may now take the above statement and make it say anything you wish, as is your wont. I understand Rod's frustration with you. However, one thing that you have misconstrued that is too simple to bother with, my "PS - Who are those people" related not to you at all, but to those named in the post I was replying to, who I assume to be pop singers (Puff Daddy & Eminem??). You may now turn THAT statement to mean anything you wish, also.

If I have miscontrued your meanings, especially as to "PS - Who are these people?", I apologize. As to paranoia, I believe that means a generalized undue fear, while I have not reacted with this degree of intensity to others on the board, including Rod, but only to yourself. I am not dismissing that there may be something in my personality which is responsible for my reacting in such a way to your posts, and will watch myself for this in the future.

As to Rod's possible frustration, I've learned a good deal from him on Beethoven and Handel, although not to revere them exclusively, more or less forsaking all others. So he may have the possible satisfaction of knowing he's taught me something, but not all he would evidently like to. I would think he doesn't find my posts any more frustrating than I find some of his, but that we both also enjoy the jousting. I may be mistaken on that.

Chaszz




[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited August 15, 2003).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
...I would think he doesn't find my posts any more frustrating than I find some of his, but that we both also enjoy the jousting. I may be mistaken on that.

Chaszz

Jousting is the best part!

(PS have you sampled the mp3s from Julius Caesar as my site?)

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited August 15, 2003).]

[Grillparzer]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
If I have miscontrued your meanings, especially as to "PS - Who are these people?", I apologize. As to paranoia, I believe that means a generalized undue fear, while I have not reacted with this degree of intensity to others on the board, including Rod, but only to yourself. I am not dismissing that there may be something in my personality which is responsible for my reacting in such a way to your posts, and will watch myself for this in the future.

As to Rod's possible frustration, I've learned a good deal from him on Beethoven and Handel, although not to revere them exclusively, more or less forsaking all others. So he may have the possible satisfaction of knowing he's taught me something, but not all he would evidently like to. I would think he doesn't find my posts any more frustrating than I find some of his, but that we both also enjoy the jousting. I may be mistaken on that.

Chaszz


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited August 15, 2003).]

Mr. Chaszz,
Thank you for your very nice letter. Perhaps in the heat of the moment we both overreacted. I find that I do agree with Mr. Rod on many topics, particularly Beethoven, although as I told him I try to have a wider scope of interest than merely 1 or 2 composers, and he didn't hurt me for saying it! You may be surprised to know that I am actively interested in many Romantic Era composers also, simply not the ones that you have expressed interest in, I do not simply dislike things for the sake of doing so, but rather because I have listened to them and found them not to my taste. As for Wagner, I think that many of his overtures and preludes are quite stirring, but beyond those I have difficulty being content. My aim has not been to Wagner-bash, but just as I said, to try to keep things relevant. I have learned much from Mr. Rod as well as from everyone else here, as I make no claim to knowing everything. I will say that if you wish to follow B's influence musically, in their own time Brahms and Wagner were poles apart, and Brahms was the one who elected to follow B's example (to what degree of success is debatable), so this seems to reflect at least indirectly on Wagner, if only inferentially.
I hope you were not unduly inconvenienced by last night's electricity event. It must have been quite difficult to choose CD's in the dark!



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Adieu,
Franz

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Grillparzer:
Mr. Chaszz,
Thank you for your very nice letter. Perhaps in the heat of the moment we both overreacted. I find that I do agree with Mr. Rod on many topics, particularly Beethoven, although as I told him I try to have a wider scope of interest than merely 1 or 2 composers, and he didn't hurt me for saying it! You may be surprised to know that I am actively interested in many Romantic Era composers also, simply not the ones that you have expressed interest in, I do not simply dislike things for the sake of doing so, but rather because I have listened to them and found them not to my taste. As for Wagner, I think that many of his overtures and preludes are quite stirring, but beyond those I have difficulty being content. My aim has not been to Wagner-bash, but just as I said, to try to keep things relevant. I have learned much from Mr. Rod as well as from everyone else here, as I make no claim to knowing everything. I will say that if you wish to follow B's influence musically, in their own time Brahms and Wagner were poles apart, and Brahms was the one who elected to follow B's example (to what degree of success is debatable), so this seems to reflect at least indirectly on Wagner, if only inferentially.
I hope you were not unduly inconvenienced by last night's electricity event. It must have been quite difficult to choose CD's in the dark!

Well, thank you for your nice post in return.

We were not much inconvenienced at my house, but CDs were out of the question of course. It was good to have a battery-operated radio to keep up with the news. We are all glad I'm sure that it was not a terrorist event, but the vulnerability of our power systems to these cascades is unsettling, to say the least.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Peter, I know it's not your view that Romantic music is worthless, I was addressing others who might be reading the post as well.

With all respect, I still think you are concentrating on the trees rather than the forest. For that matter, Wagner's literary conceptions come as much from contemporary scholarly work on German mythology as from earlier operas.

But, even on the detail level: I've just listened to the overtures from The Magic Flute and Der Freischutz. Try to imagine the latter as a development out of the classical era without the intervention of Beethoven. Can you, especially the horn passage near the beginning of the overture which is so reminiscent of the 6th symphony?

In the horn passage I hear Wagner not Beethoven! I think it is generally accepted that Der Freischutz was the first German Romantic opera - try to imagine Wagner without it!

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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:
In the horn passage I hear Wagner not Beethoven! I think it is generally accepted that Der Freischutz was the first German Romantic opera - try to imagine Wagner without it!

A question, then for you, Peter. What degree of influence did Beethoven have on Weber? Much of Weber's orchestral music reminds me a lot of Beethoven's orchestral work. I am certain that Beethoven was NOT influenced by Weber, but I wonder about Weber. If there was some degree of influence then we have a link to Wagner. (But I do agree that Wagner's music is very remote from Beethoven's.)

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Amalie:
Chaszz,

Which parts of America were affected by the blackout. I understand it was Eastern Seaboard in California.
Wonder how it affected Medicare Hospitals?

Just the North Eastern parts of America were affected. California is in the west. Unfortunately, I have no idea how any of the hospitals were affected. I imagine they have back up emergency generators to handle power failures.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
A question, then for you, Peter. What degree of influence did Beethoven have on Weber? Much of Weber's orchestral music reminds me a lot of Beethoven's orchestral work. I am certain that Beethoven was NOT influenced by Weber, but I wonder about Weber. If there was some degree of influence then we have a link to Wagner. (But I do agree that Wagner's music is very remote from Beethoven's.)

Interesting question and aside from Der Freischutz and a few overtures I'm not over familiar with Weber's music - nor am I familiar with E.T.A.Hoffmann's Undine or Spohr's Faust which influenced Weber. Then who is familiar with a five-movement symphony by the now-forgotten Justin Heinrich Knecht, a work entitled A Musical Portrait of Nature. Each movement of that symphony carried a descriptive title, remarkably similar to those used a dozen years later by Beethoven in his Pastoral, and with the same unusual choice of five movements. Beethoven almost certainly knew of this precedent for his own symphony!



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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:
Interesting question and aside from Der Freischutz and a few overtures I'm not over familiar with Weber's music - nor am I familiar with E.T.A.Hoffmann's Undine or Spohr's Faust which influenced Weber. Then who is familiar with a five-movement symphony by the now-forgotten Justin Heinrich Knecht, a work entitled A Musical Portrait of Nature. Each movement of that symphony carried a descriptive title, remarkably similar to those used a dozen years later by Beethoven in his Pastoral, and with the same unusual choice of five movements. Beethoven almost certainly knew of this precedent for his own symphony!

It's a pity that so much of this music has been forgotten (maybe not in some cases). The things I've heard from Weber (symphonies and concertos) have given me the desire to hear more music that was current with Beethoven. Schubert is a good one not to have been forgotten and I think gives some good indication as to what was happening at that time in Vienna. Are there many recordings (that you are aware of) of Kuhlau among other contemporaries of Beethoven? I've listened to Clementi's symphonies, as well.