Wagner & Beethoven

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Chaszz referred to himself as a novice, having only been listening to Wagner for a year or so. My comments are not reflecting peoples intelligence or lack of it, rather their ability to discern art from non-art.

I may be relatively new to Wagner, but I don't think that affects my judgment of him in general. There are only a few artists in my lifetime who have appealed to me so powerfully and completely: Bach, Beethoven, Rembrandt, Cezanne, and Phidias (master sculptor of the Elgin marbles). And I'll put my ability to discern art up against yours any day. Since you have expressed indifference to the supreme greatness of the Elgin marbles, and a liking for kitschy shallow Pre-Raphaelite painting, would you like to make a comparative value judgment there? This may be unfair in a music forum, but you yourself used the word 'art' rather than 'music'. If you complain that you're off your turf with visual art, then who indeed gave you the palm for music? Besides your own rather limited taste?

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
I never heard Beethoven properly until I was 19 or 20, Handel much later still. I was not into CM at the time but something about B's music captured my attention, the manner of its construction and nobility of the music, these things I found emulated only in Handel's output. When you listen to this music you are granted temporary audience with the residents of Olympus! With the others it is just not the same.

In reference to not being into CM early on, but now that you are, what other composers of the Handel - Beethoven interest you? Sammartini, Haydn, Quantz, Boccerhini (to name a few)? Are these "good" composers or do they go the way of the Romantics in terms of quality? (I'm afraid that my definition of CM is much more than Handel and Beethoven.)

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I may be relatively new to Wagner, but I don't think that affects my judgment of him in general. There are only a few artists in my lifetime who have appealed to me so powerfully and completely: Bach, Beethoven, Rembrandt, Cezanne, and Phidias (master sculptor of the Elgin marbles). And I'll put my ability to discern art up against yours any day. Since you have expressed indifference to the supreme greatness of the Elgin marbles, and a liking for kitschy shallow Pre-Raphaelite painting, would you like to make a comparative value judgment there? This may be unfair in a music forum, but you yourself used the word 'art' rather than 'music'. If you complain that you're off your turf with visual art, then who indeed gave you the palm for music? Besides your own rather limited taste?

I was joking about the Pre-Raphealite painting, every man and his dog has one of these prints on his wall these days (including my own brother), hence I mentioned them, but there are musical equivilents to this that are even more shallow - the copious amounts of Romantic parlour music that is vile and worthy only for the superficial classes it was written for, for example.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

In reference to not being into CM early on, but now that you are, what other composers of the Handel - Beethoven interest you? Sammartini, Haydn, Quantz, Boccerhini (to name a few)? Are these "good" composers or do they go the way of the Romantics in terms of quality? (I'm afraid that my definition of CM is much more than Handel and Beethoven.)

I've said enough already. I gave the definitions by which I judge what I like and you can take or leave it. I'm not talking about who is 'good' I am giving you a framework by which when I say a composer is the greatest you know upon what criteria I am making this judgement. If I prefered Wagner, to name but one, to Beethoven I would be at a Wagner or general CM forum. That I think the opposite should come as no surprise here at a Beethoven orientated forum.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited August 07, 2003).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
I've said enough already. I gave the definitions by which I judge what I like and you can take or leave it. I'm not talking about who is 'good' I am giving you a framework by which when I say a composer is the greatest you know upon what criteria I am making this judgement. If I prefered Wagner, to name but one, to Beethoven I would be at a Wagner or general CM forum. That I think the opposite should come as no surprise here at a Beethoven orientated forum.

Wagner's relationship to Beethoven was being discussed, a reasonable topic for a Beethoven forum. When you judged Wagner's music as being worth relatively nothing, and his relationship to Beethoven as being virtually non-existent, the rest ensued.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I do not recall stating I was anything of the sort. You can take or leave what I say. You state on your own home page regarding Beethoven being possibly the worlds greatest composer. I ask you to elaborate upon this comment, if you believe it to be true, that is.

Well you implied it by questioning other peoples' ability to evaluate art in comparison to your own! Of course I believe the comments on the homepage to be true and I doubt that any knowledgable classical music musician or fan would dispute Beethoven's greatness. I really think the whole debate as to who is the best when we are talking about artists of the calibre of Beethoven, Mozart or Wagner is meaningless - each in their own way made a major contribution to western classical music. I prefer Beethoven to Wagner - it doesn't mean that I think Wagner crap!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well you implied it by questioning other peoples' ability to evaluate art in comparison to your own! Of course I believe the comments on the homepage to be true and I doubt that any knowledgable classical music musician or fan would dispute Beethoven's greatness. I really think the whole debate as to who is the best when we are talking about artists of the calibre of Beethoven, Mozart or Wagner is meaningless - each in their own way made a major contribution to western classical music. I prefer Beethoven to Wagner - it doesn't mean that I think Wagner crap!

then the reference to Beethoven being the greatest composer on the home page is meaningless, and thus by the same token Beethoven's own much confessed opinion as to whom is the greatest composer is also meaningless. To have a clear and focused idea about what music is all about means you are mad. But then, when I joined the forum of the Handel Society of America and told them of Beethoven's preference for Handel above all others, they said there that Beethoven was mad. Welcome to the ludicrous world of Classical Music!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

What is at bottom being debated here is the limits of one's own judgment. As I said some time ago on one of these exchanges, I don't get anything from Schumann's music. But I would never dream of putting my own taste up against the legions of civilized, intelligent, informed and sensitive Schumann devotees who love his music. I simply realize it is a shortcoming or omission of my own taste and mind, accept it, and make nothing more of it.

There's no doubt there's a lot more that's great in Handel than Messiah and the Water and Fireworks music, and there's probably a good deal to be gained by using original instruments for Beethoven. But to go from there to a dismissal of all CM except Beethoven and Handel is a great leap. A person who feels compelled to create absolute criteria for music and declares his own judgment and taste as superior to 2-3 centuries of intelligent collective experience of music, is unfortunately reminiscent of those dictators who have tried to take their personal absolute political views and impose them on their own countries and on the world.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited August 07, 2003).]

[Steppenwolf]

Do you listen to any music, Rod, other than Handel and Beethoven? I suppose you think the scores of all other music ever written should be disgarded as garbage.
There is a huge difference from saying "I prefer Beethoven to Wagner" to saying "Wagner is inferior, according to my own definitive artistic criteria". There is also a big difference between saying "Beethoven is the best" and saying " the music of everyone else is worthless and not worth listening to".
I could go on and name a whole long list of very intelligent, very gifted people who have been Wagnerians (not just composers, but even great minds such as Thomas Mann and C.S. Lewis), but I suppose you know better than all of them. It's funny how all Hollywood soundtracks follow the Wagnerian style of dramatic musical composition (rather than a predictable little Handelian trill of the harpsicord at the beginning of each scene) ... I suppose all these countless people who have found artistic merit in Wagner are deluded, and should all visit your Handel website to be enlightened.
I personally get a lot out of Wagner's music. It moves me very deeply, I find it supremely beautiful, enlightening, and enjoyable, and life-affirming. How do you account for me? I suppose I am either a fool who doesn't know what he is talking about, or a mentally disturbed weirdo.
How do you justify this rubbish about Wagnerian's being weird? On what grounds?
That stupid, unjustified and ignorant vilification that Wagnerians often recieve is, in my opinion, weird in itself, and gets a little tiresome.






[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited August 07, 2003).]

[spaceray]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
[BWagnerian's being weird? On what grounds?
That stupid, unjustified and ignorant vilification that Wagnerians often recieve is, in my opinion, weird in itself, and gets a little tiresome.

There have been lots of tiresome postings on this forum recently(you know who you are!) and I happen to have caught one posting last Saturday that broke all the rules and was swiftly removed for it's intolerance .We all know where Rod is coming from by now and think that if you don't want to see it all again don't bother reading it.He won't change his opinion ,we won't change ours never the less it makes for most interesting entertainment,a sort of Beethoven Forum reality moment.By the way I really love that Handel trill at the start of every scene.
I suspect the list of great minds that admire Wagner is very long but I wonder what Beethoven would have thought of him?

[Grillparzer]

[quote]Originally posted by spaceray:

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
[BWagnerian's being weird? On what grounds?
That stupid, unjustified and ignorant vilification that Wagnerians often recieve is, in my opinion, weird in itself, and gets a little tiresome.

There have been lots of tiresome postings on this forum recently(you know who you are!) and I happen to have caught one posting last Saturday that broke all the rules and was swiftly removed for it's intolerance .We all know where Rod is coming from by now and think that if you don't want to see it all again don't bother reading it.He won't change his opinion ,we won't change ours never the less it makes for most interesting entertainment,a sort of Beethoven Forum reality moment.By the way I really love that Handel trill at the start of every scene.
I suspect the list of great minds that admire Wagner is very long but I wonder what Beethoven would have thought of him?

Mr. Rod,
I have been reading this thread with great interest the last few days. I know that such an astute gentleman as yourself would never hurt the feelings or impugn the discernment of a fellow Beethovenian, but I get the distinct impression that you would say that my huge investment ($1500 can.) in and daily enjoyment of the Complete Beethoven Edition is not only a waste of money, but also that it shows a total lack of artistic taste on my part because the music was played on modern instruments. Am I interpreting this correctly? Surely you can't mean that! Tell me please that this is not an accurate perception on my part of your intent.
Your humble servant,

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Adieu,
Franz

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I have removed the first part of your message as the issue has been dealt with and I've no wish to stir things up again! PETER.



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited August 08, 2003).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Grillparzer:

Mr. Rod,
I have been reading this thread with great interest the last few days. I know that such an astute gentleman as yourself would never hurt the feelings or impugn the discernment of a fellow Beethovenian, but I get the distinct impression that you would say that my huge investment ($1500 can.) in and daily enjoyment of the Complete Beethoven Edition is not only a waste of money, but also that it shows a total lack of artistic taste on my part because the music was played on modern instruments. Am I interpreting this correctly? Surely you can't mean that! Tell me please that this is not an accurate perception on my part of your intent.
Your humble servant,

Well this is an interesting point, for, going beyond my crazed assertions as expressed above, even within the realm of Beethoven's own output there are prerequisits to be met. I have the lieder volume myself which is good value, though I am no fan at all of Fischer-Dieskau. Some of the other volumes are useful in that the have alot of rare material compiled together that took me many years to collect elsewhere.

That being said...wait for it...I would not consider buying the main works as presented in this edition, which is not 'complete' in any case, though in the past I have had all of the main works many times over on modern instruments. I do not need to explain my position here other than the fact I grew tired of the music as it was conventionally presented, just keep downloading the period instrument mp3s I provide at the main site and you will see why I prefer period instrument renditions of Beethoven.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
Do you listen to any music, Rod, other than Handel and Beethoven?

Yes, too much of it.

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:

There is a huge difference from saying "I prefer Beethoven to Wagner" to saying "Wagner is inferior, according to my own definitive artistic criteria".

Either way I believe both to be true. There is music that I regard as rubbish, then there is music that has virtue but is lacking in some way that if Beethoven composed in this manner the critics would be the first to notice it, ie the ideas are not interesting enough or the treatment of the ideas or the structure of the whole work. I always ask my self if Beethoven wrote a piece like this what would i think of it. If the answer is 'this piece would not be worthy' then there you have it.

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:

There is also a big difference between saying "Beethoven is the best" and saying " the music of everyone else is worthless and not worth listening to".

Well, i am not saying this, for starters my Handel collection outstrips my Beethoven by a ratio of about 4 to 1! Nevertheless it is true that the others do not provide the level of perfection I experience from these two and the differences become more apparent the longer I listen.

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:

I could go on and name a whole long list of very intelligent, very gifted people who have been Wagnerians (not just composers, but even great minds such as Thomas Mann and C.S. Lewis), but I suppose you know better than all of them. It's funny how all Hollywood soundtracks follow the Wagnerian style of dramatic musical composition (rather than a predictable little Handelian trill of the harpsicord at the beginning of each scene)

The bit about Hollywood I agree with totally. I have said exactly the same myself many times, ie late Romantic music sounding like movie soundtracks. This is not a positive position to my mind. If I want a good movie soundtrack I can listen to my Ennio Morricone cds, he does a better job than Wagner. Handel could say more with one trill than Wagner could in a whole act.

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:

... I suppose all these countless people who have found artistic merit in Wagner are deluded, and should all visit your Handel website to be enlightened.
I personally get a lot out of Wagner's music. It moves me very deeply, I find it supremely beautiful, enlightening, and enjoyable, and life-affirming. How do you account for me? I suppose I am either a fool who doesn't know what he is talking about, or a mentally disturbed weirdo.
How do you justify this rubbish about Wagnerian's being weird? On what grounds?
That stupid, unjustified and ignorant vilification that Wagnerians often recieve is, in my opinion, weird in itself, and gets a little tiresome.

Well, whether Wagnerians are stupid or not is ultimately not important, I am saying the music itself is not in Beethoven's league. His immense artistic ability is let down by his lack of artistic self discipline and judgement. Perhaps you would find the opposite of this statement at a Wagner forum.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited August 08, 2003).]

[Grillparzer]

"I have removed the first part of your message as the issue has been dealt with and I've no wish to stir things up again! PETER."

Mr. Peter,
I bow to your wisdom, sir. I also do not wish to stir things up again, I am still just a bit stirred up myself, however, this too shall pass.

Sincere apology for MY participation,



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Adieu,
Franz

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[Rod]

Originally posted by Grillparzer:

Mr. Peter,
I bow to your wisdom, sir. I also do not wish to stir things up again, I am still just a bit stirred up myself, however, this too shall pass.

Sincere apology for MY participation,

Time heals all wounds.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin