Wagner & Beethoven

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

Also I see a comparison in the attempt to achieve moral force as B. did. Whatever one may say about Wagner's character, and quite a bit may be said, his efforts to express moral purposes via his operas were sincere and serious.

Highly debatable! - I have heard Parsifal described as an anti-semetic charter. No one need say anything about Wagner's character - he said it all himself in his own words!

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'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:
Highly debatable! - I have heard Parsifal described as an anti-semetic charter. No one need say anything about Wagner's character - he said it all himself in his own words!

Highly debatable and actively bring debated. A site I visit has a few scholars who hold that Wagner, while an antisemite, was one of a legion of antisemites of his time and is not responsible for the Holocaust or what the Nazis did with his music. If he is condemned for his antisemitism, many other great artists and thinkers of c. 1850-1930 must be also. Wagner was notably outspoken as an antisemite but was notably outspoken on everything he had opinions on. They also hold that the antisemitic interpretations of certain characters and plots in his operas, including the 'blood racism' in Parsifal, are unfounded, and have some convincing evidence to back this up. He in fact argued and differed hostilely with the racist Gobineau with whom he is always associated by his schoalarly detractors, and while an antisemite, publicly criticized racial supremacy theory which was popular at the time. He argued for better assimilation of Jews into European life ratrher than expulsion or destruction. He also spoke out against the idea of Germany conquering any other people which was current after the founding of the country in 1870. When he began a magazine in 1878 to publicize the Bayreuth festival, he directed that no antisemitic writings be allowed in it.

They hold that no doubt he was a bad person, but less bad than his reputation, expecially the taken-for-granted Nazi tie-in, would admit. There are mitigating factors to his personality which are usually ignored, and even suppressed.

Although I have not been convinced of everything these people say, I have changed my opinions to a certain degree.

While the idea of Wagner as a moralist may take some getting used to, if taken on their terms, the operas are attempts to make sense of life and society and point a moral course for the individual. Parsifal in particular.

Some of these people are equally interested in Wagner's philosophy, thought and literary symbolism as in his music, and I disagree with them sharply here. I think he surpasses his ideas and dramas by a very long way as a composer, as is quite typical in opera.

The website, by the way, is http://groups.google.com/groups?grou...mposers.wagner
if anyone is interested.

Chaszz


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited July 30, 2003).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I will try and put up a track of Siegfried's funeral music tomorrow, and we'll see whose music it can be compared with.

The CD I brought in today does not translate well to MP3 on the web, too distorted. I'll being in another version tomorrow and try again.

Chaszz

[Amalie]

Wagner's anti-semitism is very complex.
He wrote a book about 'Jewish influence in music, which frankly I don't think anyone has been able to make sense of, and is virtually discounted by music scholars.
I am not sure it has any relevance whatsoever on his music.
Wagner has suffered I think unduly and for too long because he had the misfortune to be Adolf Hitler's favourite composer and we all know the stories about a rapt Furer with head back and eyes closed, communing with Wagner's music in the great Furtwangler concerts of the 30s.
I believe that in the same way Beethoven took the symphonic form to it's ultimate realization, Wagner did the same with Opera.
As far as I am aware, even in his worst moments did not order anyone's death, and did not leave behind a legacy that continues to poison his own national identity.
Other anti-semitic great artists such as Dostoevsky do not come in for the same criticism because they were not Germans, and therefore not part of a distinctively German nationalist tradition of anti-semitism, and were in anycase not loved by Hitler.
I believe Cosima was part Jewish and her father Liszt, had a Jewish mistress, who was Princess Wittgenstein.


* I am looking forward to hearing Chaszz's track of Siegfried's funeral. *




[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited July 30, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Amalie:
Wagner's anti-semitism is very complex.
He wrote a book about 'Jewish influence in music, which frankly I don't think anyone has been able to make sense of, and is virtually discounted by music scholars.
I am not sure it has any relevance whatsoever on his music.
Wagner has suffered I think unduly and for too long because he had the misfortune to be Adolf Hitler's favourite composer and we all know the stories about a rapt Furer with head back and eyes closed, communing with Wagner's music in the great Furtwangler concerts of the 30s.
I believe that in the same way Beethoven took the symphonic form to it's ultimate realization, Wagner did the same with Opera.
As far as I am aware, even in his worst moments did not order anyone's death, and did not leave behind a legacy that continues to poison his own national identity.
Other anti-semitic great artists such as Dostoevsky do not come in for the same criticism because they were not Germans, and therefore not part of a distinctively German nationalist tradition of anti-semitism, and were in anycase not loved by Hitler.
I believe Cosima was part Jewish and her father Liszt, had a Jewish mistress, who was Princess Wittgenstein.


* I am looking forward to hearing Chaszz's track of Siegfried's funeral. *


[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited July 30, 2003).]

I do agree that to tarnish Wagner with events 50 years after his death is unreasonable. Nor do I think a work of art should be judged by the 'moral' standards of its creator - it exists independently and should stand or fall on purely artistic grounds.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited July 31, 2003).]

[Chaszz]

Here is Siegfried's Funeral Music, from The Ring, conducted by Furtwangler at a live performance at La Scala in 1950. The sound is not as good as more recent recordings, of course, but Furtwangler has the best interpretation. This piece reminds me of Beethoven's funeral marches. But even more so the stark beats of brass and drums remind me of that heavy diminished chord which strikes five (six?) times toward the end of the exposition in the first movement of B's 3rd Symphony.

This might be indicative of both Beethoven and Wagner "shaking their fists at fate". In Beethoven's case perhaps the need to rally after his deafness, and his reactions to Napoleon both pro and con, partly inspired the awesome 3rd. In Wagner's case the hero Siegfried's betrayal and slaying may be symbolic of the thwarting of German nationality and culture by various forces. But here is an interesting example of what I call the deliberate dirtying of Wagner's reputation. One scholar I've read (I forget his name) draws attention to this parallel in both composers' use of heavy unsettling chords. He cites this music specifically and compares it with Beethoven in general. Then he goes on to say that (I'm paraphrasing) in Beethoven's case this power is obviously in the service of a noble vision of mankind, while in Wagner it's obviously hatred and bigotry that are being expressed... Excuse me? This is a passage without words. Did someone provide this scholar with private lines into Beethoven's and Wagner's brains?

(To avoid a lengthy download, darken and copy the URL, open the file menu of a player, click on 'Open' or 'Open URL', paste the URL in and start the player.)


http://www.zigmund.com/Wagner_S_Funeral_Music.mp3


- Chaszz

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited July 31, 2003).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Here is Siegfried's Funeral Music, from The Ring, conducted by Furtwangler at a live performance at La Scala in 1950. The sound is not as good as more recent recordings, of course, but Furtwangler has the best interpretation. This piece reminds me of Beethoven's funeral marches.

I know this piece, but I am listenig to the mp3 now. I does not strike me as a particularly Beethovenian piece. If you hear my recording of the funeral march from the Eroica by Geordi Saval you'd think they were poles apart. Check this link.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...ssical&n=36713

Hang around for the Eroica march on the 'Authentic' mp3 page.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited July 31, 2003).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
I know this piece, but I am listenig to the mp3 now. I does not strike me as a particularly Beethovenian piece.

Chaszz: "...This piece reminds me of Beethoven's funeral marches. But even more so the stark beats of brass and drums remind me of that heavy diminished chord which strikes five (six?) times toward the end of the exposition in the first movement of B's 3rd Symphony..."

You didn't comment on this, prefixed by 'even more'...

Chaszz

[Amalie]

A great piece of music Chaszz, one can feel the brooding threatening atmosphere and unresolved tension.
Furtwangler I think, had a unique gift for interpreting Wagner and so far as it is possible, this is the way Wagner would have liked it played.
My husband and I agree and can see what you mean about the similarities in Beethoven's funeral marches,
but don't forget that Wagner was the supreme and peerless exponent of what one might call the brass, virtually reinventing the French horn and assigning it at at a crucial in his musicianship.
I am not a technical musician, but Wagners Chords are very langorous and extended and there is always Wagner a sense of unresolved tension and passion, (like with Beethoven), we hear this in Siegfried's Funeral March where his death dramatically is not a resolution of the story of the 'Ring', but points ahead to Gotterdammerung, and the destruction of everything.

*****************************************

My husband thinks that the greatest modern
conductor of the 'Ring' is James Lavine and the Chicago Symphony.
I shall be interested to know who your favourite conductor is Chaszz?

Lysander.



[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited July 31, 2003).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Amalie:

A great piece of music Chaszz, one can feel the brooding threatening atmosphere and unresolved tension.
Furtwangler I think, had a unique gift for interpreting Wagner and so far as it is possible, this is the way Wagner would have liked it played.
My husband and I agree and can see what you mean about the similarities in Beethoven's funeral marches,
but don't forget that Wagner was the supreme and peerless exponent of what one might call the brass, virtually reinventing the French horn and assigning it at at a crucial in his musicianship.
I am not a technical musician, but Wagners Chords are very langorous and extended and there is always Wagner a sense of unresolved tension and passion, (like with Beethoven), we hear this in Siegfried's Funeral March where his death dramatically is not a resolution of the story of the 'Ring', but points ahead to Gotterdammerung, and the destruction of everything.

*****************************************

My husband thinks that the greatest modern
conductor of the 'Ring' is James Lavine and the Chicago Symphony.
I shall be interested to know who your favourite conductor is Chaszz?

Lysander.

[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited July 31, 2003).]

I am glad you enjoyed this, Lysander. Believe it or not I'm only 15 months or so into Wagner. Experienced Wagnerites have been recommending Furtwangler to me all that time, but I couldn't get into it because of the recorded sound limitations. I would rather hear Bohm and Solti. But with this funeral music I sat down yesterday and today before posting and listened to Solti, Bohm, Stokowski, Toscannini, Mazell and it was only Furtwangler who expressed it most nearly as I wanted to hear it. So I guess I'm over the line now and ready for the big experiences with F.

I also recently bought a Ring by Reginald Goodall for the English. Well I can hardly understand the words anyway, but I love the interpretation which is slow and allows one to hear extra details of phrasing and orchestration. I do not however like the funeral music in that one.

The new regular at Bayreuth lately, Adam Fisher, is quite good in my opinion. The
Walkure and Siegried they did this week were excellent. They are broadcasting Gotterdammerung live tomorrow if you care to listen to it. See the week's schedule at
http://www.operacast.com/bayreuth03.htm#hollander

So my preferences are evolving, couldn't ay for sure at this point.

Your husband sounds like quite a Wagner fan himself.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited July 31, 2003).]

[Amalie]

Thanyou Chaszz for that Link to Bayreuth,
We shall listen tomorrow.
Are you booked up to go to Bayreuth?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Chaszz: "...This piece reminds me of Beethoven's funeral marches. But even more so the stark beats of brass and drums remind me of that heavy diminished chord which strikes five (six?) times toward the end of the exposition in the first movement of B's 3rd Symphony..."

You didn't comment on this, prefixed by 'even more'...

Chaszz

Well, with respect you are talking about details whereas I always think about the overall impression. Consider the overall drawn-out treatment from Wagner, which barely resembles any kind of march as Beethoven would consider it. The typical Wagnerian habit of developing a theme by giving it to the brass to belch out in a most uncouth manner, as shown in this piece, Beethoven would never do. Yet the use of brass in the Eroica march, especially in this period instrument recording, is much more effective and terrifying than anything I've heard from Wagner. Consider Siegfried as a whole and you are as far away from Beethovenian style as is possible to my mind.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited August 01, 2003).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Amalie:


Thanyou Chaszz for that Link to Bayreuth,
We shall listen tomorrow.
Are you booked up to go to Bayreuth?

I am booked for six or seven years or so in the future. I'm more concerned now with getting tickets for the James Levine Ring cycle at the Met in 2004, for which they are holding out all sorts of diabolical carrots and sticks. Trying to figure out what is the least I can spend in other tickets or joining their Guild, etc. or whatever, to get on a preference list.

Enjoy today's broadcast.

Chaszz

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, with respect you are talking about details whereas I always think about the overall impression. Consider the overall drawn-out treatment from Wagner, which barely resembles any kind of march as Beethoven would consider it. The typical Wagnerian habit of developing a theme by giving it to the brass to belch out in a most uncouth manner, as shown in this piece, Beethoven would never do. Yet the use of brass in the Eroica march, especially in this period instrument recording, is much more effective and terrifying than anything I've heard from Wagner. Consider Siegfried as a whole and you are as far away from Beethovenian style as is possible to my mind.

Well, Rod, you responded about as I expected, but I figured there's nothing wrong with giving it a try.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Well, Rod, you responded about as I expected, but I figured there's nothing wrong with giving it a try.

It was an honest response Chaszz. The fact is, if I thought there was any strong connection between the music of Beethoven and Wagner I'd probably like Wagners music. Of course there is the phenomenon of the 'Wagnerisation' of Beethoven's music to consider. Trouble is to my my mind most of B's output does not stand up to this kind of interpretation, which is probably why so many people have told me they think Beethoven is boring. No one can or, I predict, will, be able to say any of the Beethoven mp3s presented at the 'authentic music' page are boring. Beethoven symphonies sould be, in a way, scary. A shock factor and dynamism is required that you never hear in late Romantic music. If you heard Saval's Eroica you'd be shocked for sure!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin