Wagner & Beethoven

[Amalie]

Wagner who was a very proficient pianist sketched out the 'Ring' by playing it in a piano base part, which he then transcribed into full orchestra and played it first before his wife Cosima and some friends.
Wagner was devoted to Beethoven's memory and particularly the 9th, as we all know, and this is why Wagner himself never wrote any symphonies,apart from an early work in 1832, because Beethoven's 9th was the ne plus ultra of the symphonic form.
I am interested in Beethoven's influence on Wagner and how he specifically assimilated his influence in his own music.
I am also curious to know whether Wagner's transcription of the 9th has ever been recorded, or was ever completed?

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Lysander


[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited July 27, 2003).]

[Rod]

I have seen the Wagner 9th on one CD, can't recall the details though. I'm surprised anyone would want to buy it. Personally, I don't hear much Beethoven in Wagners output!



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Amalie:

Wagner who was a very proficient pianist sketched out the 'Ring' by playing it in a piano base part, which he then transcribed into full orchestra and played it first before his wife Cosima and some friends.
Wagner was devoted to Beethoven's memory and particularly the 9th, as we all know, and this is why Wagner himself never wrote any symphonies,apart from an early work in 1832, because Beethoven's 9th was the ne plus ultra of the symphonic form.
I am interested in Beethoven's influence on Wagner and how he specifically assimilated his influence in his own music.
I am also curious to know whether Wagner's transcription of the 9th has ever been recorded, or was ever completed?

********
Lysander


[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited July 27, 2003).]

What a large bone thrown to Wagnerphile like me. Thanks, Amalie. I'm sorry for the length of my answer, but this dog has a great deal to chew on in this bone.

I may be wrong, but as far as I can ascertain, Wagner was a competent pianist but not a proficient one. He complained from time to time in Cosima's diaries about his clumsiness when playing.

He idolized Beethoven and occasionally would even hire a string quartet to come to his home and play Beethoven's quartets for him when he felt the need to hear them.

He was little-trained as a musician or composer and learned his art by several timely conducting stints in his younger years. Here he was able to study scores intensively at firsthand, and learn harmony, counterpoint, development and orchestration from the masters, prime among whom was Beethoven. I myself think the most apparent influence is in the heavy but forcefully dynamic way his music unfolds, with both a weightiness and a contrast between tragedy and joy which are typical of Beethoven. He translated the Beethoven symphonic concept into opera to such an extent that sometimes his orchestra carries the melody and the singers sing embellishments or secondary lines. Singers have traditionally had to work extra hard to be heard above the orchestra at certain points, and Wagner compensated for this by hiding the orchestra under the stage at Bayreuth.

The symphonic weight is heard in the overtures as well as in the vocal and intrumental passages in the operas. Several purely orchestral passages which strongly show this Beethovenian weightiness and drama are Wotan's farewell to his daughter from the last act of 'Die Walkure', Siegfried's Rhine Journey from the first act of 'Gotterdammerung', and Siegfried's funeral music from the last act of the same opera. The funeral music is so powerful and searing that only Beethoven's music can be compared with it. This orchestral weightiness was not customary in 19th century opera. Verdi's last operas show Wagner's influence in their heavier, more symphonic textures.

Wagner regarded the Ninth as the end of the symphony, and Beethoven's use of voices in the finale as an indication that future symphonic development would have to find its outlet in vocal music. You know that he intended to combine Shakespeare and Beethoven in his music dramas. He seems to have needed a dramatic plot to make his musical juices flow. He admitted this himself. Several works not connected with his operas are dry and uninteresting, such as the march commissioned for the American Centennial in 1876. Virtually the only first rate purely orchestral work he left was the Siegfried Idyll, which was based closely on material from the Ring, expressed his joy in his new son Siegfried, and was a Christmas gift for Cosima. In this case, the intimate extra-musical motivations seem to have provided enough fuel to light the creative fire.

In his old age, he changed his mind about the symphony having ended, probably because of the powerful symphonies being written around him by the other Romantics. He planned a series of six symphonies himself, which were never written. I for myself think he wouldn't have been able to pull it off, and would have gone back to music drama had he lived longer.

I would certainly like to hear his orchestration of the Ninth.

Chaszz



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited July 28, 2003).]

[Amalie]

Thankyou Chaszz for all your fascinating information.
Beethoven's legacy was a wieght and seriousness in the approach to music and art that implied a complete and radical re-evaluation of mans place in the Universe.
It is no coincidence that the early Wagner was a revolutionary, even anarchist political views, and Beethoven, we know in the early part of his life also had very radical political views.
Both men came to see politics as rather futile and jejune.
The problem was I think, that Beethoven in the 9th was trying to advance a new musical language which I agree pointed to future choral works such as in Opera. But he did not perhaps have the supreme Operatic articulation of Wagner who could conceive of and execute the most extraordinary artistic creation without parallel anywhere in art, either before or since, an entire Universe peopled by corrupt but vulnerable Gods, hero's and dwarves.
Beethoven pointed towards mans Einheit or unity with creation. But he is taking his point of departure from this world, this veil of tears, longing, and joy.
Wagner goes one step further and actually creates a parallel world or Universe, with recongnizably fallible creatures in it. He is drawing us into this world, or in fact, placing us in it, in some sort of ambiguous spectator - participant role as Shakespeare does with his drama.
The artistic centre of gravity has changed in the transition from Beethoven to Wagner.
Wagner is really saying, look, mans corruption has affected even the the heavens and the Gods themselves are tainted by mans primordeal sin and greed.
It is like Macbeth's terrifying cry, that his brutal taking of innocent life has infected the whole of nature, and has made the 'multitudinous seas incarnadine'.
The whole imagery of Macbeth is so to speak pregnant with images of the corruption of nature that Macbeth's murderous behaviour has so transformed. That is very Wagnerian. and suggests that he knew his Shakespeare well!
Wagner's universe, of course, is not some simplistic fairy tale, but a powerful metaphor that describes how the world we live in really is, and therefore it reflects back on ourselves, in not entirely flattering ways. It may be that Wagner notoriously sensitive and sensual individual found comtemparory Europe and Germany in particular utterly intolerable and escaped into this fantastic artistic construct. He imagined a world beyond the grasp of Beethoven, because artistically there was nothing else to say after Beethoven, and one had to, as it were, make a leap out of the world itself in order to discover new worlds that would give perhaps some greater perspective on our own tormented planet.

PS. I wish my husband and I could afford to hire a string quartet to play Beethoven's string quartets. How absolutely wonderful!

We have downloaded a ten minute exerpt from 'Der Ring des Nibelungen', which is quite powerful.

I have looked at some of my husbands excellent books on Wagner to assist me with this rather lengthy post, to which he has also enjoyed contributing to.

*******
Regards
Lysander.

[Steppenwolf]

Wagner's idols were Beethoven and Shakespeare (others as well, but they came first). He wanted to combine the best of both of them in his musical-dramas.

Here is a lovely short story Wagner wrote in his youth, a fictional account of a meeting with Beethoven. It reveals the love and admiration he felt for Beethoven - it's a wonderful ode to B, and quite realistic too in the way he imagines his personality (unfortunately the prose style of this late 19th century translation is a bit tortuous and wordy - I can't find a more up to date version on the web):
http://users.belgacom.net/wagnerlibr...se/wagpilg.htm

Also read an article Wagner wrote later in life about Beethoven, and how the 9th symphony contains "all the secrets of the universe":
http://users.belgacom.net/wagnerlibr...e/wlpr0133.htm

Wagnerphobes will scoff (in their ignorance) but Wagner proved to be a worthy sucessor of Beethoven.

[Amalie]

Thankyou for your information Steppenwolf,
My idols are also Beethoven and Shakespeare.

I have read Wagner's pilgrimage to
Beethoven. And I shall read with great interest the article on how the 9th symphony contains all the secrets of the Universe.

Have you seen this short animation of , Die Walkure, -->
http://www.perdigallos.com/walkure.html

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Amalie:
Thankyou for your information Steppenwolf,
My idols are also Beethoven and Shakespeare.

I have read Wagner's pilgrimage to
Beethoven. And I shall read with great interest the article on how the 9th symphony contains all the secrets of the Universe.

Have you seen this short animation of , Die Walkure, -->
http://www.perdigallos.com/walkure.html

I am reading through Wagner's essay on Beethoven and it is absolutely fascinating!
It will take me a little while to absorb it all though.


[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited July 29, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
Wagnerphobes will scoff (in their ignorance) but Wagner proved to be a worthy sucessor of Beethoven.

What about Brahmsphiles!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:

Wagnerphobes will scoff (in their ignorance) but Wagner proved to be a worthy sucessor of Beethoven.

Wagner's admiration of Beethoven is well known, but with regard to musical comparisons I do things the simple way. Listen to anything posted on the Authentic mp3 page, then listen to the nearest equivalient work from Wagner. I think in this respect he had other more substantial influences.

For the record I have a quote where Wagner stated to the effect that Bach was the top dog musically.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Wagner's admiration of Beethoven is well known, but with regard to musical comparisons I do things the simple way. Listen to anything posted on the Authentic mp3 page, then listen to the nearest equivalient work from Wagner. I think in this respect he had other more substantial influences.

For the record I have a quote where Wagner stated to the effect that Bach was the top dog musically.

I will try and put up a track of Siegfried's funeral music tomorrow, and we'll see whose music it can be compared with.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

The symphonic weight is heard in the overtures as well as in the vocal and intrumental passages in the operas. Several purely orchestral passages which strongly show this Beethovenian weightiness and drama are Wotan's farewell to his daughter from the last act of 'Die Walkure', Siegfried's Rhine Journey from the first act of 'Gotterdammerung', and Siegfried's funeral music from the last act of the same opera. The funeral music is so powerful and searing that only Beethoven's music can be compared with it. This orchestral weightiness was not customary in 19th century opera. Verdi's last operas show Wagner's influence in their heavier, more symphonic textures.

I've found all of these excerpts moving (especially in connection with the rest of the work). Of lately, I've been a bit obsessed with Parsifal. I have to add the final scenes with your list above; I feel that Parsifal was Wagner's greatest work and I am not alone in this. I do not know that there is an opera that is greater, but some are on the same par. To compare Fidelio, The Magic Flute, Othello, among others with Parsifal is really comparing apples to oranges. They are all good and of the highest quality and of the best output of their respective composers.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I will try and put up a track of Siegfried's funeral music tomorrow, and we'll see whose music it can be compared with.

How does the music of op9 compare with Wagner?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
How does the music of op9 compare with Wagner?

In my opinion very little. I'm thinking more of the symphonic Beethoven.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
In my opinion very little. I'm thinking more of the symphonic Beethoven.

Fidelio? The 9th?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Fidelio? The 9th?

Yes to both, and also the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 8th and the overtures and other misc. orchestral pieces. But it would be in the emotionality, weightiness, drama and stark contrasts rather than in anything more specifically SOUNDING like B. In form and orchestration and in other ways, there are pretty large differences.

Also I see a comparison in the attempt to achieve moral force as B. did. Whatever one may say about Wagner's character, and quite a bit may be said, his efforts to express moral purposes via his operas were sincere and serious.